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Djibriel

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Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« on: March 08, 2011, 09:21:33 AM »
Hey guyz

I have a whole lot of questions that remain unanswered in, to my knowledge, the wide horizon of the FFV(A) fandom, code monkeys included. It is my hope that for those who are more in the know about what's mostly the GBA game, it is a mere stroll down the beach to unearth this info. It certainly seems easy info to look up, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm often wrong about this type of stuff, which is why I can't be arsed to do it myself  :blush:

Mad credits would go to whoever is smart, brave and sexy enough to figure this stuff out. In my walkthrough for instance, but also, you know, the earth.

- Some algorithms are missing from mog09's FAQ over at GameFAQs. For instance, the hit rate used by the status ailment bit of Dark Arts. The elemental damage is unblockable, the status ailment part is certainly not. I've observed that Moldwynds get killed by Hellwind all the freaking time (they absorb the element, but fall to Petrify) yet Behemoth Kings often survive the spell, so my theory is that it is a normal level/Magic Evasion type deal rather than a flat %, as it is with for instance !Combine attacks. What hit calculations are used here, and what are the hit rates for the Dark Arts?
 :edit:
Solution: status ailment fails when (0..99) < target's Magic Evasion%, hits otherwise

- The treasures used to calculate your Treasure% as indicated by Mr. Clio are well-documented for the SNES game, but I haven't found an extension for the new GBA treasures. I would be real handy to have a start-to-finish list for all those chests.
 :edit:
The full list was given in a post by samurai goroh on page 2

- There are instances in the game where you fight one of two monster formations. Chest guardians for instance, or the cannons on the Flying Ronka ruins. What are the odds between a more common and a more rare encounter? Is there even such a thing (certainly seems that way to me, but ya never know).

 :edit:
(Minotaur/counter discussion no longer relevant)

That's about it. Maybe some of this stuff is known already; I picked through the documents on this site, but didn't find it there.

Also, I'm considering setting up a FFV(A) Bugs 'nd Glitches document, as the knowledge seems scattered. Bugs are much better described when the faulty code is exposed though, and some bugs don't become apparent in gameplay unless the code is viewed. I'd never be able to give it the quality it needs by myself. Is there any enthusiasm about such a project on these boards? Hell, I could just give a big list of bugs I've collected so far and then never have my name appear anywhere, I'd just like to see such a document come into being.



« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 03:40:50 PM by Djibriel »
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Deathlike2

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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2011, 10:27:03 AM »
Quote from: Djibriel on March 08, 2011, 09:21:33 AM
- Some algorithms are missing from mog09's FAQ over at GameFAQs. For instance, the hit rate used by the status ailment bit of Dark Arts. The elemental damage is unblockable, the status ailment part is certainly not. I've observed that Moldwynds get killed by Hellwind all the freaking time (they absorb the element, but fall to Petrify) yet Behemoth Kings often survive the spell, so my theory is that it is a normal level/Magic Evasion type deal rather than a flat %, as it is with for instance !Combine attacks. What hit calculations are used here, and what are the hit rates for the Dark Arts?

I hope you've referenced the original guide that started it all...
http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/588331-final-fantasy-v/faqs/30040

The monster itself has 75% magic evasion, so that's the rate it is evading the status effect. The other monster you have referenced has 0% magic evasion (so, the status effect is always applied).


Quote
- There are instances in the game where you fight one of two monster formations. Chest guardians for instance, or the cannons on the Flying Ronka ruins. What are the odds between a more common and a more rare encounter? Is there even such a thing (certainly seems that way to me, but ya never know).

It's like 75-25 I think.. but that's probably not the most accurate.

Quote
- Counter, the Monk support ability, can be blocked. I heard that Counter will not activate versus Minotaur, and after extensive testing I indeed have never seen it kick in. Where is this info found? Is this info tied to a monster, or a monster formation? Are there other monsters/monster formations where Counter is disabled?

I have no idea... I'll have to see this for myself.

Quote
Also, I'm considering setting up a FFV(A) Bugs 'nd Glitches document, as the knowledge seems scattered. Bugs are much better described when the faulty code is exposed though, and some bugs don't become apparent in gameplay unless the code is viewed. I'd never be able to give it the quality it needs by myself. Is there any enthusiasm about such a project on these boards? Hell, I could just give a big list of bugs I've collected so far and then never have my name appear anywhere, I'd just like to see such a document come into being.

Probably, but not by me (I'm struggling to ever write a Walkthrough for FF4 :P )
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Djibriel

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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2011, 10:39:53 AM »
Quote
I hope you've referenced the original guide that started it all...
http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/588331-final-fantasy-v/faqs/30040

The monster itself has 75% magic evasion, so that's the rate it is evading the status effect. The other monster you have referenced has 0% magic evasion (so, the status effect is always applied).

I am good friends with that document. But unblockable damage + status ailment with seperate hit rate is not a routine the SNES game uses. The SNES game has just something like Leaf Dance, which has a flat 50% chance of setting Darkness. All the !Combine attacks that can inflict a status ailment have a flat 75% chance of being set according to the GBA algorithm document. So since Dark Arts' status appears more often on weak, 0 Magic Evasion targets than high-level high Magic Evasion targets, it looks like an unique hit rate routine. It's a good theory to assume the normal magical hit rate formula is jumped to after the unblockable elemental damage has been calculated, but it's just a theory and it would be good to see it proven.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2011, 10:50:59 AM »
Quote
- Counter, the Monk support ability, can be blocked. I heard that Counter will not activate versus Minotaur, and after extensive testing I indeed have never seen it kick in. Where is this info found? Is this info tied to a monster, or a monster formation? Are there other monsters/monster formations where Counter is disabled?

I've got it to work fine in FF5, and FF5A Euro (will test US version in a moment). I think there's some aspects that need explaining.

Counter won't work if you block (shield) or evade (Samurai ability) the attack. It will also not work vs special physical attacks (like Minotaur's Critical). As long as the character takes damage from Fight/normal physical damage, then the random probability to counter kicks in. This is probably why it isn't "working" for you.

 :edit:
US version is operating the same way as the rest.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 11:10:05 AM by Deathlike2 »
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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2011, 11:09:22 AM »
Quote from: Djibriel on March 08, 2011, 10:39:53 AM
Quote
I hope you've referenced the original guide that started it all...
http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/588331-final-fantasy-v/faqs/30040

The monster itself has 75% magic evasion, so that's the rate it is evading the status effect. The other monster you have referenced has 0% magic evasion (so, the status effect is always applied).

I am good friends with that document. But unblockable damage + status ailment with seperate hit rate is not a routine the SNES game uses. The SNES game has just something like Leaf Dance, which has a flat 50% chance of setting Darkness. All the !Combine attacks that can inflict a status ailment have a flat 75% chance of being set according to the GBA algorithm document. So since Dark Arts' status appears more often on weak, 0 Magic Evasion targets than high-level high Magic Evasion targets, it looks like an unique hit rate routine. It's a good theory to assume the normal magical hit rate formula is jumped to after the unblockable elemental damage has been calculated, but it's just a theory and it would be good to see it proven.

I did some rereading of the document, and apparently it is already in the code.

Here's the basic algo applied:
Code: [Select]
********************************************
6.2.2) HIT DETERMINATION FOR MAGICAL ATTACKS
********************************************

1)  If Spell Hit% = A, the attack automatically hits.  Goto Step 10.
2)  If the Attacker is targetting his own party members and the spell
    automatically hits its own party members, the attack automatically hits.
    Goto Step 10.
3)  If the Target's  "Can't Evade" parameter matches the attacking magic type
    (White, Black, Time, Summon, Song or Blue), the attack automatically hits.
    Goto Step 10.
4)  Hit% = Spell Hit% + Attacker Level - Target Level
    Evade% = Target Magic Evade%
5)  Check to see if Aegis Shield magic block succeeds (6.3.2).  If so, the
    attack misses;  do not follow any more steps.  The Target cannot evade with
    Aegis Shield if he has Sleep, Paralyze, Charm or Stop status or is attacking
    himself.
6)  Apply multitargetting modifier to Hit% (6.3.3)
7)  Apply Target status effect modifiers to magic Hit% (6.3.6)
8)  Let N1 = (0..99) 
    If N1 >= Hit%, the attack misses;  do not follow any more steps.
9)  Let N2 = (0..99) 
    If N2 < Evade%, the attack misses;  do not follow any more steps.
10)  The attack hits.  Follow the rest of the steps to calculate damage.

There are a number of attacks though that have a random probability for a status effect, but there's also some that always applies the status effect.

Code: [Select]
********************
10.12) TERRAIN MAGIC
********************

SPELL              ATT  MP  HT%  ELEM   STAT    DUR  TAR  R  SPECIAL        DF
Gust                38   0    A  Air              0   SE  N                 06
Earthquake          90   0    A  Earth            0   AE  N  Ground Attack  2D
Gale Cut            90   0    A  Air              0   AE  N                 06
Tornado              0   0   99                   0   SE  N  HP to Crit.    0F
Branch Arrow        53   0    A                   0   SE  N  Physical       0A
Leaf Dance         100   0    A  Air    Dk(99%)   A   AE  N  Lvl Based Dam. 0B
Branch Spear       150   0    A                   0   SE  N  Physical       0A
Vine Hell            0   0    A         Slow      A   AE  N                 16
Dust Storm         100   0    A  E,A    Dk(50%)   A   AE  N  Lvl Based Dam. 0B
Quicksand            0   0    A                   0   SE  N  Destroy        18
Desert Storm        90   0    A  E,A              0   AE  N                 06
Heat Sand          150   0    A  F,E              0   AE  N                 06
Tsunami             38   0    A                   0   AE  N                 06
Whirlpool            0   0   99                   0   SE  N  HP to Crit.    0F
Big Tsunami         90   0    A                   0   AE  N                 06
Big Tsunami        120   0    A                   0   AE  N                 06
Faen Fantom          0   0  100         Dead      A   SE  N                 17
Will-o-Wisp        100   0    A  Fire   Mini(50%) A  SEO  N  Lvl Based Dam. 0B
Bottomless Swamp     0   0   66                   0   AE  N  Destroy        18
Poison Mist        100   0    A  Poison Po(99%)   A   AE  N  Lvl Based Dam. 0B
Waterfall          120   0    A  Water            0   SE  N                 06
Stalactite         120   0    A                   0   SE  N                 06
Cave-in             12   0    A                   0   SE  N  (0..200)*ATTx4 09
Sonic Boom       12/16   0    A                   0  SEO  N  % on Curr. HP  07

Even in the same list, there are damage+status attacks that either succeed or has a random chance to succeed.
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Djibriel

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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2011, 11:11:14 AM »
I was aware that a miss cannot provoke a counter, though I'm not sure what you mean when you say "special physical attacks" cannot provoke. Specialty Techniques can provoke Counter-attacks. Are you saying that some Specialty Techniques are specifically prohibited from provoking counters?

Regardless, that's not the main issue as Minotaur uses more than just !Critical Attack. I just got Counter to work vs. Minotaur on the US version. Never mind then... it seems it was a rumor coupled with some freak RNG read-out.

 :edit:
We are not on the same wavelength :)

I know there is a routine that gives (elemental) damage and a status ailment. I talked about it in my previous post. If there is a chance a status ailment will be set (like with Leaf Dance), it is a static 50% chance. That means that Leaf Dance has a 50% chance to set Darkness to Moldwynd and a 50% chance to set it to a Behemoth King. This routine is likely used by !Combine as well, since !Combine attacks also have a static (or flat) chance of setting the ailment relevant to the attack performed.

Dark Arts is different, because while the damage is unblockable, the chance of setting the ailment is not unblockable and also does not appear to be a static. This means that a different routine was created, which also means that we can't say for sure what the chances are when it hasn't been documented yet.

I hope I'm making myself a little clearer now,
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 11:16:22 AM by Djibriel »
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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2011, 11:14:25 AM »
Quote from: Djibriel on March 08, 2011, 11:11:14 AM
I was aware that a miss cannot provoke a counter, though I'm not sure what you mean when you say "special physical attacks" cannot provoke. Specialty Techniques can provoke Counter-attacks. Are you saying that some Specialty Techniques are specifically prohibited from provoking counters?

I believe it's all special techniques. "Special physical attacks" I mean is those that are essentially the equivalent of Fight in visibility, except they have a super-multiplier invoked (think of the SkullEater's Teeth attack).
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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2011, 11:23:56 AM »
Well, that's just not true then :p  "Special Techniques" as they are called in FFVA, provoke Counter-attacks just fine. I saw it just now, and saw it multiple times earlier today when confirming that Counter-attacks can keep Archeoaevis from changing form (netting you a Goliath Tonic rather than a Hero Cocktail in the end).
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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2011, 11:25:48 AM »
Well... it's hard to notice when I like running an Aegis Shield all day... :P

I'd like to block everything w/o that need for the specialty weps/armor.

 :edit:
Quote
I saw it just now, and saw it multiple times earlier today when confirming that Counter-attacks can keep Archeoaevis from changing form (netting you a Goliath Tonic rather than a Hero Cocktail in the end).

You can do the same with the Minotaur to avoid invoking his death script (not that it would matter). This version of the game isn't equipped to react to it (FF6 should I think).
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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2011, 11:41:50 AM »
Quote from: Djibriel on March 08, 2011, 11:11:14 AM
:edit:
We are not on the same wavelength :)

I know there is a routine that gives (elemental) damage and a status ailment. I talked about it in my previous post. If there is a chance a status ailment will be set (like with Leaf Dance), it is a static 50% chance. That means that Leaf Dance has a 50% chance to set Darkness to Moldwynd and a 50% chance to set it to a Behemoth King. This routine is likely used by !Combine as well, since !Combine attacks also have a static (or flat) chance of setting the ailment relevant to the attack performed.

Dark Arts is different, because while the damage is unblockable, the chance of setting the ailment is not unblockable and also does not appear to be a static. This means that a different routine was created, which also means that we can't say for sure what the chances are when it hasn't been documented yet.

I hope I'm making myself a little clearer now,

It's the same algo, the exception is that chance to hit is 100%. You then have to apply the magic evasion blocking part of the algo.

 :edit:
I'm going over the individual algo types... and I see what you mean (still looking through them for a close comparison). It's a new algo, but it's really a variation of the fundamental algo.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 11:59:59 AM by Deathlike2 »
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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2011, 12:00:35 PM »
instructrtrepe's document has this to say about the status effect hit rate from that routine:

Let N1 = (0..99).  If N1 < Status Hit%, inflict Status Effects.

I see no talk of levels or magic evasion in there. I think the reason we kept misunderstanding eachother is that I assume that routine to disregard the target's stats and merely look at the RNG (which is why I keep talking about 'flat' or 'static' percentages) and you assume the basic magical hit rate routine (as used by, for instance, the Sleep spell) is called 50% of the time by attacks like Dust Storm, etc.


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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2011, 12:04:08 PM »
Quote from: Djibriel on March 08, 2011, 12:00:35 PM
instructrtrepe's document has this to say about the status effect hit rate from that routine:

Let N1 = (0..99).  If N1 < Status Hit%, inflict Status Effects.

I see no talk of levels or magic evasion in there. I think the reason we kept misunderstanding eachother is that I assume that routine to disregard the target's stats and merely look at the RNG (which is why I keep talking about 'flat' or 'static' percentages) and you assume the basic magical hit rate routine (as used by, for instance, the Sleep spell) is called 50% of the time by attacks like Dust Storm, etc.

If you had missed my edit, I'm simply saying they added a new algo specifically for the new spells to add magic evasion as a factor of the status being applied. They did something similar in FF4A, but I don't believe they did too much of that in FF6A (just one specifically new spell IIRC).

It's as simple as this...

If target resists status, skip status affliction determination step.
Let N2 = (0..99) 
   If N2 < Evade%, the status effect is not applied;  do not follow any more steps.
[/edited for simplicity]
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 12:24:38 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2011, 12:38:53 PM »
Right! That's the answer I was looking for, and more or less what I was expecting. Thank you! Just so that we understand eachother correctly and completely:

- When you say Evade, you mean Magic Evasion?
- This function is only called by Dark Arts that set status ailments?
- This function is used by all five Dark Arts that combine damage with status ailments, these being Evil Mist, Hellwind, Deep Freeze, Meltdown and Chaos Drive?
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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2011, 12:49:50 PM »
Quote from: Djibriel on March 08, 2011, 12:38:53 PM
- When you say Evade, you mean Magic Evasion?

Yes.

Quote
- This function is only called by Dark Arts that set status ailments?

Most likely.

Quote
- This function is used by all five Dark Arts that combine damage with status ailments, these being Evil Mist, Hellwind, Deep Freeze, Meltdown and Chaos Drive?

I wish I could remember the other status afflictions off the top of my head, but most likely (I'm trying to recall if HP Leak was even blockable, which I assume it is not).
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Re: Wanted: Bounty Hunters
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2011, 01:00:46 PM »
There is no immunity to HP Leak, but Meltdown's side-effect still remained unseen versus Istory Lythos (Magic Evasion of 90%).
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