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Deathlike2

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FF4 - Magic Analysis
« on: August 05, 2008, 01:36:33 AM »
So I was bored...  :lame:  :sleep: I know.. but I might as well give this a go.. especially since noone's given me inspiration for new topics. I might as well digress on some of this stuff (excluding monster magic since the majority are battle/monster specific)... So here we go...


Black Magic

Level 1 elementals and Chocobo

They are fine IMO... but compare this vs the Chocobo spell...

For 40% more MP (which comes to 2MP), you get to deal more damage than exposing an elemental weakness (2x only though) and be more boss-worthy (see Octomammoth).. but Chocobo can't be split (if someone were to hack in a Big Chocobo vision, please do that for my amusement  :wink:)

Level 2 elementals and Bio

They are terrible... especially when you compare against Bio...

For 33% more MP (5MP or so), you can cast an insta-spell that always deals 2x more damage (unless the elemental is exposing an elemental weakness of 2x or more, but that's meh in most cases) plus HP leak (which isn't special, but it's a cool bonus). It's hard to argue the math here.. especially in Palom's case, it's always 6 levels away.

Level 3 elementals vs...

These are spells that are tough to compare.. the closest thing that's comparable is Quake, but Quake is learned a number of levels later, it tends to be a lot more reliable as a split spell.. since the split factor is not in play. The bulk of these become obsolete too quickly, especially when splitting damage is in play. Fortunately the only redemption is being slightly stronger than a elemental summon when there are 3 targets or less. The spells could use a boost though...

Piggy

Too unreliable... the only thing that redeems it is the Change Rod.

Toad

It's Size but much more vicious. One wonders why this is relatively easy to learn for Rydia.. yet Piggy, the inferior status spell is learned much later.. (opposite is true for Palom)...

Warp

I wished Square did keep this as a death spell.. as long as it had a Piggy-like hit rate (very low). It would've worked out IMO. It does take a while to learn this for Rydia (it's like in the upper 10s for her...) I forget how long it takes Palom to learn this...

Psych/Drain

I think FF4ET had the right idea... to buff the spell up to a reasonable base.. but how much? I don't know. Let me put it this way.. it should be possible to drain enough MP to match her maxMP (assuming the target has 0 magic defense).. that's how powerful it "should be"... Drain probably should be 50% to 100% more damage than that, but I'd be weary of overpoweredness. The elemental property though is a useless property but will probably balance out in the end...

Poison

Most irrelevent spell. It currently serves to be the best Monster Summoner patience timer. If the spell were had damage dealt between the level 1 and level 2 elementals, maybe it would have a greater longevity..

Sleep

It's underused for some reason, but that's probably because it's primarily level based and the magic stat limits the sleep time...

Stop

The whole Hourglass thing is kinda strange... as you get a limited number of Silver Ones.. and the Copper Ones are a multitargeted Stop... the Golden Ones are simply rare... anyways I think the spell is fine as is.. I guess

Stone/Break

Shouldn't this cost more MP as a multitargetable insta-kill spell? It puts Cockatrice to shame sometimes...

Weak

Maybe it should have a lower hit rate, but that gets traded to be a multitargetable spell...

Doom/Death

Making this multitargetable should make this a good way of overshadowing Warp... otherwise it's too mediocre a spell.

Flare

This spell is a tad too strong to be insta-hit spell, but then again, it's not a great spell against extremely high magic defense monsters.. I guess it's fine.. but perhaps maybe an MP adjustment would be fair.

Meteor

It takes too long, and it's too depressing. Cut the spell time in half... probably be slightly longer than Bahamut would be the best change for this spell alone.


White Magic

Cure spells

 They are relatively balanced... Cure2/Cura tends to be significantly better than Fire1 (see Tellah when it matters) for Zombie killing.. and Cure3/Curaga is better than Fire2... but that's about it. Also outside healing totally favors Cure1 by design...

Life spells

I guess it's worth what you pay for..

Float

It's useful so it's there

Esuna

My only peeve is that FF4A's version is stupid (removing Berserk)... and HP leak is not removed (why is it added to Dispel of all magic?)

Haste

Not impactful enough... but that's relative to how the ATB works... especially when the 2nd one is very unimpactful. The worst part is that it's not multitargetable...

Slow

Probably too impactful by design... a few variations of this spell may be more beneficial.

Protect/Shell

Relatively non-impactful spells... needs a boost..

Blink

Fine as is, but maybe it needs a 2nd version (a multitargetable version)...

Charm

Fine as is, but could use a second version too (a multitargetable version)

Peep

I wonder if this could be improved to show "extra weakness and drain elementals".. but most importantly.. the level of the enemy...

Sight

It truly needs to do something in battle... either inflicts blind or cure blind (the former sounds better).

Hold

I'm inclined to think there should be a 2nd version of the spell that is multitargetable, but that would be called Sleep...

Silence

Fine as is for what it does.. too bad it's only for preventing regular spells.

Dispel

It doesn't remove enough to be as useful it could be.. and I don't understand why HP Leak is included here... plus monsters don't usually cast Berserk as part of their battle sequence (it's used as a counter primarily)

Reflect

It needs to be multitargetable, but cost more MP for that tradeoff...

Holy

HP Leak is a gimmick considering the target has to be weak vs Holy elemental to take advantage of it. This spell looks awful compared to Flare... needs a spell power boost with a small tweak to spell time...


More spells to digress with later...
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 02:25:12 AM by Deathlike2 »
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2008, 08:31:59 AM »
Okay, I don't feel like doing a ton of quotes this time, so I'm just going to list my opinions in the same way:

Level 1 elementals and Chocobo

Chocobo is only good against bosses, its lack of multi-targeting makes it pretty useless for normal enemies, but that doesn't bother me at all.

Level 2 elementals and Bio

Bio might just be too powerful, considering it can't be resisted or absorbed by any enemy.

Level 3 elementals vs...

Well, I've never really liked the elemental summons so these are a good upgrade to the level 2 elementals. Quake might be too powerful, for the same reason as Bio but at least it can be avoided entirely by aerial enemies.

Piggy

Never bother with it outside of the change rod. Never bother with it at all in the DS version because the change rod has the same abysmal success rate as the spell.

Toad

There are a few situations I use this in, but not many.

Psych/Drain

Definitely need an upgrade to be useful, considering Psych can't even absorb anything in the subterran.

Poison

Since it's an attack spell it has the potential to be a good spell, so why did they give it 0 attack power? Doesn't make any sense.

Sleep

Too unreliable, every time I've needed it it's failed on me.

Stop

The hourglasses are something that looks good on paper, but in practice they don't make any sense. I can see the reasoning, the bronze hourglass is good early in the game but wears off too fast late game, silver works good throughout the game, and gold is great for enemies that take a long time to kill. In practice the bronze hourglass lasts more than long enough for every enemy in the game. Stop itself is one of the few status effect spells I actually make use of.

Stone/Break

The one time this shines is in the underground waterway, you can eliminate elecfish for 5 MP less than Bio. That's the only place I've really used it. What I've never understood is why the enemy skill "Beak" exists, isn't it pretty much identical to this?

Weak

I like it the way it is.

Doom/Death

Yeah, this is never really useful by the time you get it.

Flare

All it really needs is a casting time, as it is it's one of the game's fastest spells.

Meteor

The opposite of Flare, needs a reduced casting time.

Cure spells

No comment.

Life spells

No comment.

Float

Extremely useful in a few situations, completely useless in the rest.

Esuna

No comment.

Haste

Meh, Haste always seemed useful, especially in the GBA version.

Slow

Oddly I never really used this until the DS version.

Protect/Shell

These were definitely useless until the DS version.

Blink

Having played the DS version, a multi-target Blink is really overpowered, set it on your party against a Behemoth and it won't stand a chance.

Charm

Never really used it.

Peep

I don't think the game has a control code for printing the enemy's level, so that would need to be coded from scratch.

Sight

Pointless spell in every way. Even when I didn't know where I was going in the game this was useless.

Hold

Useful against tinymages, then it just kind of drops to the bottom of the list.

Silence

Another one I've never really used, I'd rather attack with anti-mage equipment than cast the spell.

Dispel

Completely worthless as far as I'm concerned. It can't do the one thing that would truly be useful, removing reflect status.

Reflect

I disagree, it's fine as it is.

Holy

No comment.

Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2008, 01:36:10 PM »
Level 3 elementals vs...

Well, I've never really liked the elemental summons so these are a good upgrade to the level 2 elementals. Quake might be too powerful, for the same reason as Bio but at least it can be avoided entirely by aerial enemies.

The summons are better than the level 2 elementals, but they cost 2x more MP for only 25% more damage and don't have to worry about split damage. If the summons didn't cost as much, they would have had more usage IMO. You can't fairly compare the level 3 elementals vs the summons.

Quote
Psych/Drain

Definitely need an upgrade to be useful, considering Psych can't even absorb anything in the subterran.

Only 1 monster in the Lunar Core can be taken advantage of...

Quote
Poison

Since it's an attack spell it has the potential to be a good spell, so why did they give it 0 attack power? Doesn't make any sense.

Go figure.

Quote
Sleep

Too unreliable, every time I've needed it it's failed on me.

The Slumber Sword is probably a better option, since Cecil's level tends to be ahead of the pack...

Quote
Stop

The hourglasses are something that looks good on paper, but in practice they don't make any sense. I can see the reasoning, the bronze hourglass is good early in the game but wears off too fast late game, silver works good throughout the game, and gold is great for enemies that take a long time to kill. In practice the bronze hourglass lasts more than long enough for every enemy in the game. Stop itself is one of the few status effect spells I actually make use of.

I actually need to test this vs regular Stop, but if there's an actual difference, perhaps the spell multiplier factors into the timer.. hmmm

Quote
Stone/Break

The one time this shines is in the underground waterway, you can eliminate elecfish for 5 MP less than Bio. That's the only place I've really used it. What I've never understood is why the enemy skill "Beak" exists, isn't it pretty much identical to this?

Beak = 100% hit rate, this isn't 100%.

Quote
Charm

Never really used it.

It's a more reliable Hold/Sleep....

Quote
Silence

Another one I've never really used, I'd rather attack with anti-mage equipment than cast the spell.

Those Fiends in the Land of Summoned Monsters demand for this spell... I fear being Charmed by those monsters... it's worth 6MP. There's alose those TinyToads... and a number of enemies that I can take advantage of before I have access to the anti-mage equipment.

Quote
Dispel

Completely worthless as far as I'm concerned. It can't do the one thing that would truly be useful, removing reflect status.

Have you been missing the discussions around this? It does do it, it unfortunately needs to be Reflected off though...
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2008, 02:00:24 PM »
Those Fiends in the Land of Summoned Monsters demand for this spell... I fear being Charmed by those monsters... it's worth 6MP. There's alose those TinyToads... and a number of enemies that I can take advantage of before I have access to the anti-mage equipment.

I usually take fiends out with...Bio? Damn, I can't even remember what spell I use on them. :isuck:

Have you been missing the discussions around this? It does do it, it unfortunately needs to be Reflected off though...

Yeah, but that adds another step, the spell shouldn't be reflectable in the first place. There's one situation where the enemy does the setup for you, EvilMask, and I've yet to try it there since I usually just run from them.

Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2008, 02:09:37 PM »
Those Fiends in the Land of Summoned Monsters demand for this spell... I fear being Charmed by those monsters... it's worth 6MP. There's alose those TinyToads... and a number of enemies that I can take advantage of before I have access to the anti-mage equipment.

I usually take fiends out with...Bio? Damn, I can't even remember what spell I use on them. :isuck:

Good chance it's Quake or Stone.

Quote
Have you been missing the discussions around this? It does do it, it unfortunately needs to be Reflected off though...

Yeah, but that adds another step, the spell shouldn't be reflectable in the first place. There's one situation where the enemy does the setup for you, EvilMask, and I've yet to try it there since I usually just run from them.

Oh, I totally agree with the reflectable property. However, when did people fear using the Thunder Claw?
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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2008, 02:35:38 PM »
I take it you mean the thunder claw on Yang, which I definitely use there. If you mean on Edge I can't imagine it working that well, I'd expect the 0 attack power to make the 4x damage bonus negligible compared to using the Masamune and Murasame together.

Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2008, 02:41:02 PM »
I take it you mean the thunder claw on Yang, which I definitely use there. If you mean on Edge I can't imagine it working that well, I'd expect the 0 attack power to make the 4x damage bonus negligible compared to using the Masamune and Murasame together.

You should really look at how Edge's attack power is derived from then and the near insta-9999 damage that you're missing out on.
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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2008, 03:04:16 PM »
Really? The double damage from elemental claws never made much of an impact, I used an ice claw against Rubicante and it didn't seem as good as two non-elemental katanas. I can't see the 4x multiplier making that big of a deal either but I can't really go through the damage formula at the moment, too noisy around here, I can barely focus on typing this post.

Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2008, 03:15:33 PM »
Really? The double damage from elemental claws never made much of an impact, I used an ice claw against Rubicante and it didn't seem as good as two non-elemental katanas.

I spent more time throwing Dancing Daggers and Short Katanas away. The bulk of the damage is made for Cecil+Kain anyways.

Quote
I can't see the 4x multiplier making that big of a deal either but I can't really go through the damage formula at the moment, too noisy around here, I can barely focus on typing this post.

It's 4x to the attack power of a character exposing the monster type. Even though the initial attack power appears weak, just multiply that number by 4x and you will see the difference. Heck, I'll give you a reference picture in a moment.

Edit: Here's the pics











« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 03:22:38 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2008, 04:30:15 PM »
Hah, wow, looks like I'll be carrying a thunder claw up there next time I play.

This is why you need to write a walkthrough for this game, I don't care which version. It would most definitely make a good rival to Djibriel's excellent FF6 walkthrough, at least in terms of bringing forth the best strategies possible.

Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2008, 05:17:29 PM »
This is why you need to write a walkthrough for this game, I don't care which version. It would most definitely make a good rival to Djibriel's excellent FF6 walkthrough, at least in terms of bringing forth the best strategies possible.

I've thought about it, but I'm not sure if I actually want to go about doing that. It would probably focus on FF4 anyways, with a few references to FF4ET (FF2 doesn't have that much distinction though).

I don't recall remembering much from any FF3/6 Walkthrough other than the Mynock's (although that walkthrough has a bit of holes in it, but it was solid nonetheless). I'll see what that was about...

If I write one, it would make this game look like a joke, and that's being too kind.
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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2008, 11:48:57 PM »
well, i'll give my $.02,

lv.1 elements + chocobo

all 4 of these spells have good uses in the early game. really not too much to say.

lv. 2 elements

these are kind of a joke.  like you guys said, i'd rather be using bio, unless i'm hitting a weak+ monster.

lv. 3 elements

these get some use, but again, unless i'm hitting a serious weakness, i'd rather just use quake once it's learned.  like you said, deathlike, these need to be bumped up in power.

piggy

nope, never.

toad

another useless spell.  i really, really think that toad and piggy could benefit from being weapon spells only.  sub 2 worthwhile spells into the magic list, and get rid of these 2. 

warp

not real useful. generally, i want to warp out, not go door to door.  making this a single-target death spell(semi-low hitrate) would be nice, and then making death multi-target would make these an excellent pair.

psych/drain

at higher levels, these ought to be able to almost fully restore their respective stat.

poison

it needs to be a mini-bio. give it some power.  nuff said.  only problem there is that it may overshadow the lv. 1 elements like bio does to the 2's.

sleep

underpowered.  it has the same problem that sleep has in ff1. it needs to last!

stop

i never, ever use this.  maybe it's just me, but between haste and slow, i'm taking quite a few more turns than anything remotely strong trying to kill me.

break/stone

here we go. make stone a single target spell.  replace either piggy or toad with "break", a new multi-target stone!

weak

another spell i pretty much never use, but can definitely see its uses.  since i never use it, i don't really know, are monsters susceptible to it at the end of the game?

doom

needs to be multitargeted to play nice with warp.

nuke

i'd like to see this as a multi-target "4th level" non-elemental spell.  lv. 3s power is 64, nuke's power is 100. reduce that down to 82, make it multi-target, and add a SMIDGE of casting time.

meteo

casting time HAS to be cut. outside of that, it seems ok.

cure

these spells seem fine.

life/2

fine.

float

it gets used a few times. not too much to say.

esuna

it.. works? i can see why it removes berserk, not that i agree.  the game seems to consider it a negative status.

haste

seems ok to me. maybe a SMIDGE more powerful. replace mini with hastega. as i was saying with toad and piggy, make it weapon-related only.  i know, i know, what if someone gets hiw with one those statuses? well remedies are cheap and so is esuna!  plus, items exist to cure those ailments in ff4. 

slow

it's pretty powerful. if it's left alone and not weakened, there probably shouldn't be a slowga. if it was weakened a lil bit and multi-targeted, maybe it(slowga) could replace dispel or something?

protect/shell

pretty much worthless. they need power.

blink

another spell that's fine on its own, but is lacking a full-party version.

charm

i don't think it should be multi-targeted.  it's strong enough, as is. 

peep

not very worthwhile. it needs to indicate weak+, resistances, absorbtions.

sight

worthless. replace it. multi-targeted blink?

hold

again, not worthwhile. easily replaceable.

silence

i don't think that i've EVER used it in-game. so worthless.

dispel

same here.  i'd rather be pumping myself up than worrying about knocking out statuses.

reflect

make it cost a little more and multi-target. wasting 4-5 turns is a joke.

white

make it multi-targeted and always cause hp-leak, and it's fairly decent.
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Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2008, 04:20:32 PM »
psych/drain

at higher levels, these ought to be able to almost fully restore their respective stat.

I disagree against Drain... if you've ever faced the Warlock monster in FF4ET, Drain looks vicious against you.

Quote
sleep

underpowered.  it has the same problem that sleep has in ff1. it needs to last!

It's not underpowered.. you have to look at how the status is powered.

Quote
weak

another spell i pretty much never use, but can definitely see its uses.  since i never use it, i don't really know, are monsters susceptible to it at the end of the game?

Any monster that doesn't have the boss bit are susceptible... which is a boatload of them.

Quote
nuke

i'd like to see this as a multi-target "4th level" non-elemental spell.  lv. 3s power is 64, nuke's power is 100. reduce that down to 82, make it multi-target, and add a SMIDGE of casting time.

IIRC, there was discussion of this, where it would cause buggy behavior.

Quote
blink

another spell that's fine on its own, but is lacking a full-party version.

I rethought this, but it doesn't really need a full part version. Other than the Behemoth, there are not that many monsters that would be this dumb and live long enough to take advantage of a multi-blink.

Quote
peep

not very worthwhile. it needs to indicate weak+, resistances, absorbtions.

It wouldn't be consistant like all the FF series. Level, HP, MP (though in this game, it's a derived value, so it's not needed), weakness are usually the standard info.

Quote
hold

again, not worthwhile. easily replaceable.

It's underused for whatever strange reason. I forget it pretty easily... believe it or not, it's actually has a better hit rate than Sleep.

Quote
reflect

make it cost a little more and multi-target. wasting 4-5 turns is a joke.

I'm kinda stepped away from the multi-reflect idea.. but that would be my preferance. I don't remember a time where it would truly be needed though.

Quote
white

make it multi-targeted and always cause hp-leak, and it's fairly decent.

The HP Leak behavior is more likely a property of the battle engine/spell.. which needs some actual romhacking done. I don't think it would work correctly multitargeted.
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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2008, 04:26:38 PM »
Quote
nuke

i'd like to see this as a multi-target "4th level" non-elemental spell.  lv. 3s power is 64, nuke's power is 100. reduce that down to 82, make it multi-target, and add a SMIDGE of casting time.

IIRC, there was discussion of this, where it would cause buggy behavior.

Yeah, you'd have to eliminate the "orbs" animation, which would leave you with MegaNuke's animation, basically.

Quote
white

make it multi-targeted and always cause hp-leak, and it's fairly decent.

The HP Leak behavior is more likely a property of the battle engine/spell.. which needs some actual romhacking done. I don't think it would work correctly multitargeted.

While I don't think it would react like Nuke did, I don't think the animation will work properly either, because of the part where the spell his the enemy it targeted. I'd image it will work like Magic Arrow does when made MT, it'll target one of the enemies with the animation but they'll all take damage.

Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Magic Analysis
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2008, 04:42:59 PM »
Here's the last few spells to be commented on...

Ninja Magic/Ninjutsu

Flame

Powerful as a summon, but Edge doesn't have that intelligence. It's not quite a replacement spell due to Edge's Wisdom/Intelligence until late game, but by then, it's not as useful.. still good for quick mass killing.

Flood

In the same boat as Flame, but better.

Blitz

On par with Titan, plus it being elemental. It's good enough a replacement for Rydia's summons.. I guess.

Pin

Hold powered by Wisdom/Intelligence... maybe it could be better than this..

Image

Underused by those that complain about his defense.


Summons..

Chocobo

Good as is.. no use for this bird later though...

Elemental Summons

I don't understand how they should cost 2x the MP for 25% the attack power, unless you are killing in groups. Otherwise, it's not too great a bump. If there are 4 targets or more, these summons are better than the level 3 elementals.

Titan

Well, it does have the best bang for the buck, until Quake arrives... for 33% more MP, you get damage that resembles the elemental summons exposing a 2x weakness multiplier. It's the best of the bunch, but easily obsolete.

Mist Dragon

It scales well, and eventually becomes the best summon for each injested Apple...

Asura

Unreliable.. the FF2US version is what it should be more like IMO.

Leviathan

Good until you face monsters with high magic defense. The Master of the Sea is better otherwise...

Bahamut

This can't go wrong, especially when the MP and damage tweak matches up proportionally with Flare.

Imp

Useless summon ever.. it is cheaper than the level 1 elementals for cost vs spell power, but not really amazing by any stretch of the imagination..

Mage/Mind Flayer

It's a unique summon, but the unrealiability in boss battles makes it a gimmicky summon..

Bomb

This is a single targeted Mist. Probably the most useful summon worth acquiring for MP conservation.

Cockatrice

A more reliable single targeted Break/Stone..  for something this rare, it should be better than this.
Working on the next Yet To Be Named FF4 "Hardtype" Hack Download Latest: v1.48

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