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Deathlike2

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FF4 - Final Lunar Subterrane Equip Makes No Sense
« on: June 21, 2009, 01:46:41 PM »
Hopefully it will bring me out of my boredom of the game at the moment, but here's an interesting thought.

I was reading about a Gamefaqs post about how Rydia dies so easily vs Zeromus... and I didn't believe that was entirely true or fair. The prime reason for this is that many people make the mistake of equipping Rydia with the Heroine Robe/Minvera Bustier. This piece of equipment boosts pretty much the essential physical attributes (+15 STR, +15 AGI, +15 VIT/STA) but also cripples the others (-15 WIS/INT, -15 WILL/SPR). In essence, you are trading one issue for another. This armor is actually awesome for Rosa (even better than FF4A's misguided attempt to add the White Dress as her ultimate armor).

So, it got me thinking... with all the unfinished stuff about this game... was it possible that Rydia was supposed to become young again?

As we know, Rydia discusses about how time ages differently in the Land of Summoned Monsters (or Phantom Beasts or whatever you prefer to call them). This is obviously is compounded with the fact that she "never" learns Cure2/Cura when she comes back.

The two ultimate armors (in FF4, not the Advance port)  that are provided for Rydia and Rosa in the Lunar Subterrane are the Heroine/Minerva Robe and White Robe. Given what we know about how things work, I would actually believe that the White Robe was intended for young Rydia and not so much Rosa. Rosa's stat progression will give her enough natural healing power (Cure4/Curaja isn't tremendously powerful IMO) that would totally favor the Heroine Robe. Rydia with her increased magic power with the White Robe would be much better at fighting Zeromus... even though the Sorceror/Light Robe provides greater benefits to her magic defense (+5 WIS/INT, +5 WILL/SPR vs the White Robe's +15 WILL/SPR).

Is it possible that the armors were tweaked poorly or was there some legitimate chance that Young Rydia was meant for Zeromus? Remember that there are very few equipment differences between Young and Older Rydia. Remember, Older Rydia gets to have a number of strength boosting equipment, but Younger Rydia has greater access to White Wizard equipment (Staffs and the White Robe).
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Lenophis

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Re: FF4 - Final Lunar Subterrane Equip Makes No Sense
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2009, 02:04:14 PM »
I'd have to think that if young Rydia was meant for the later portions of the game, the port would've added her in. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if TOSE thought that giving her armor would be nice, only to later discover "holy crap she's not in the game anymore!" You'd think they would know, since they let you choose whoever you wanted once you got to the end.

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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: FF4 - Final Lunar Subterrane Equip Makes No Sense
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2009, 02:08:44 PM »
It seems more likely to me that at one point older Rydia and young Rydia just equipped the same things. They needed to have separate equip indices anyway since they're a different class (even if it is just a sprite swap), they may have decided to take advantage of them, along with stripping her of white mage abilities.
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Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Final Lunar Subterrane Equip Makes No Sense
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2009, 02:15:59 PM »
Quote from: Lenophis on June 21, 2009, 02:04:14 PM
I'd have to think that if young Rydia was meant for the later portions of the game, the port would've added her in.

The point of the ports was to leave the original game unmolested for the most part...

Quote
Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if TOSE thought that giving her armor would be nice, only to later discover "holy crap she's not in the game anymore!" You'd think they would know, since they let you choose whoever you wanted once you got to the end.

TOSE had nothing to do with the original game.  :tongue:
The game has a complete set of data for each character and their armor equippability (unlikes most games where characters you never see again have limited equipment choices, like Lufia 1 or Dual Orb 2 or other RPGs I can't think off the top of my head).

What TOSE DID do in their port was remove all references to the unfinished stuff that was in the original game (see a number of my patches that added them back in), which also included the Yang-to-kick DK (not Paladin) Cecil's ass or Rydia learning Cure2/Cura. That's not what I'm discussing.. I'm talking about the original FF4 details. I'm starting to think FF4ET's rebalancing (well, it includes the Minerva Robe, although the Ribbons are overpowered) was more of an intentional tweak. Other than being easy... the "final" save location in FF4ET was a logical position for a save spot... yet it didn't exist prior!

Anyways, I'm just thinking out loud at about a small detail about this game's unfinished factor...
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Lenophis

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Re: FF4 - Final Lunar Subterrane Equip Makes No Sense
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2009, 02:28:58 PM »
Then why'd you reference FF4A a bunch of times? Quit being  misleading! :banonsmash:
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Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Final Lunar Subterrane Equip Makes No Sense
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2009, 06:13:24 PM »
Quote from: Lenophis on June 21, 2009, 02:28:58 PM
Then why'd you reference FF4A a bunch of times? Quit being  misleading! :banonsmash:

Topic is mainly about FF4, but the Advance ports references are there as a supplement. Lunar Subterrane is still universal.  :tongue:
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JCE3000GT

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Re: FF4 - Final Lunar Subterrane Equip Makes No Sense
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2009, 10:58:01 PM »
Quote from: Deathlike2 on June 21, 2009, 01:46:41 PM
Hopefully it will bring me out of my boredom of the game at the moment, but here's an interesting thought.

I was reading about a Gamefaqs post about how Rydia dies so easily vs Zeromus... and I didn't believe that was entirely true or fair. The prime reason for this is that many people make the mistake of equipping Rydia with the Heroine Robe/Minvera Bustier. This piece of equipment boosts pretty much the essential physical attributes (+15 STR, +15 AGI, +15 VIT/STA) but also cripples the others (-15 WIS/INT, -15 WILL/SPR). In essence, you are trading one issue for another. This armor is actually awesome for Rosa (even better than FF4A's misguided attempt to add the White Dress as her ultimate armor).

So, it got me thinking... with all the unfinished stuff about this game... was it possible that Rydia was supposed to become young again?

As we know, Rydia discusses about how time ages differently in the Land of Summoned Monsters (or Phantom Beasts or whatever you prefer to call them). This is obviously is compounded with the fact that she "never" learns Cure2/Cura when she comes back.

The two ultimate armors (in FF4, not the Advance port)  that are provided for Rydia and Rosa in the Lunar Subterrane are the Heroine/Minerva Robe and White Robe. Given what we know about how things work, I would actually believe that the White Robe was intended for young Rydia and not so much Rosa. Rosa's stat progression will give her enough natural healing power (Cure4/Curaja isn't tremendously powerful IMO) that would totally favor the Heroine Robe. Rydia with her increased magic power with the White Robe would be much better at fighting Zeromus... even though the Sorceror/Light Robe provides greater benefits to her magic defense (+5 WIS/INT, +5 WILL/SPR vs the White Robe's +15 WILL/SPR).

Is it possible that the armors were tweaked poorly or was there some legitimate chance that Young Rydia was meant for Zeromus? Remember that there are very few equipment differences between Young and Older Rydia. Remember, Older Rydia gets to have a number of strength boosting equipment, but Younger Rydia has greater access to White Wizard equipment (Staffs and the White Robe).

I NEVER equipped Rosa or Ryida with the "Heroine" Robe.  It lacks magic defense, lowers magic power and is just rather useless in general.  Equip those and watch as enemies with magic (Red Dragon, King Ryu etc) chew through them like butter.  The best robe(s) for Rydia are the Sorcerer's and Black depending on your preferrence.  For symmetry I equip the Black on Rydia and White on Rosa.   :laugh:
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Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Final Lunar Subterrane Equip Makes No Sense
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2009, 01:39:24 AM »
Quote from: JCE3000GT on June 21, 2009, 10:58:01 PM
I NEVER equipped Rosa or Ryida with the "Heroine" Robe.  It lacks magic defense, lowers magic power and is just rather useless in general.  Equip those and watch as enemies with magic (Red Dragon, King Ryu etc) chew through them like butter.  The best robe(s) for Rydia are the Sorcerer's and Black depending on your preferrence.  For symmetry I equip the Black on Rydia and White on Rosa.   :laugh:

I'm not as interested these days in giving Rydia the Heroine Robe.. only Rosa. Magic defense does go down, but having Rosa be a better fighter and cast more quickly outweighs her natural slowness and Cure4/Curaja's extra ~200HP healing to all characters (when your SPR/Will goes does) is nothing special IMO. I find this to be the optimal way of increasing Rosa's overall magic defense.
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JCE3000GT

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Re: FF4 - Final Lunar Subterrane Equip Makes No Sense
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2009, 01:51:43 AM »
Quote from: Deathlike2 on June 22, 2009, 01:39:24 AM
I'm not as interested these days in giving Rydia the Heroine Robe.. only Rosa. Magic defense does go down, but having Rosa be a better fighter and cast more quickly outweighs her natural slowness and Cure4/Curaja's extra ~200HP healing to all characters (when your SPR/Will goes does) is nothing special IMO. I find this to be the optimal way of increasing Rosa's overall magic defense.

You may be right about the speed and Holy will still do similar damage but I still prefer the White robe.  And Cure3 is faster and is realistically a better cure spell for the MP cost.  I rarely use Cure4 in battle.   :cycle:
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Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Final Lunar Subterrane Equip Makes No Sense
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2009, 09:45:40 AM »
Cure3 does suffer a bit, but consider this... it's only a 576-864 point difference (this assumes you lose 4 off the magic multiplier, it is only 432-648 if you manage to lose 3). Given that you are healing (post level-70) at a 3000-4000 point clip, you're not seeing that great a difference. It's only the difference between healing like 2/5 of Cecil's possible MaxHP to 1/2... I can't see that as a huge diff.

Edit: Getting Rydia+Rosa to use the Heroine Robe is pretty easy... the trick to the magic defense is equipping the Gold Hairband/Tiara since it provides +10 WIS/INT... and you get the all nifty dragon resistance to boot.

The monster examples are kinda poor though... since the majority of damage dealt depends if you have the Protect Ring equipped (the King Ryu example only requires a Tiara or Diamond Ring).

With the Heroine Robe.. Rydia's natural magic defense (because she gains both WIS/INT and WILL/SPR in great numbers) is fine.. Rosa's magic defense becomes as bad as Edge's, but that's not as bad as that sounds (if it were Yang level, then we should be scared to death).

Here's some quick numbers...

Rosa @ level 70 (raw Will/SPR) = 71
Cure 3 heals: 2592-3888
Rosa with my optimal cfg+stats = 84
Cure 3 heals: 3168-4752
Rosa with optimal Will/SPR stat = 99
Cure 3 heals: 3600- 5400

As you can see, the difference between the highest state and my optimal Rosa is not that significant a difference (unless you believe a 500 pt difference is that significant). I can understand that need when you consider Rosa's raw level 70 stat.. since that heals from 1/4 to 1/3 of Cecil's potential MaxHP, but once you get towards 80 Will Power/Spirit or greater, the differences level off. You are already being healed about 30% to 45% of 9999 (37.5% avg)... increasing that to the maximum of 36% to 54% (45% avg) is not that much of a boost considering the characters you are trying to heal.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 10:03:44 AM by Deathlike2 »
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JCE3000GT

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Re: FF4 - Final Lunar Subterrane Equip Makes No Sense
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2009, 01:01:39 PM »
I don't have my editor with me but what is the speed and power ratings of Cure3 vs Cure4? 

speed + mp vs power

I've always preferred the former.  Which is why in most instances I'd rather use Virus/Bio than Nuke/Flare if I wasn't spamming Bahamut.  Oh and the other reason I use Virus is I love the look and noise it makes.   :laugh:
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Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Final Lunar Subterrane Equip Makes No Sense
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2009, 02:45:33 PM »
Quote from: JCE3000GT on June 22, 2009, 01:01:39 PM
I don't have my editor with me but what is the speed and power ratings of Cure3 vs Cure4?

IIRC, Cure3 was like 1, and Cure4 had 0 for delay. Cure3 costs 18 MP w/spell power of 144, whereas Cure4 costs 40MP w/spell power of 288.

Quote
speed + mp vs power

I've always preferred the former.  Which is why in most instances I'd rather use Virus/Bio than Nuke/Flare if I wasn't spamming Bahamut.  Oh and the other reason I use Virus is I love the look and noise it makes.   :laugh:

Bahamut has a delay though (4 IIRC), although I'd still use it if the monster had great magic defense.
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