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Lenophis

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #420 on: July 13, 2011, 09:13:48 AM »
This whole thread (thanks a lot Meeple) has turned into a giant headache. At least assassin got a few good words in on modati.
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darkmage

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #421 on: July 13, 2011, 12:29:27 PM »
I kept the thread derailed, sorry. But I wanted to shut modati up.
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I.S.T.

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #422 on: July 13, 2011, 06:37:44 PM »
I would like to point out that some emulators are, in fact, illegal. If they include a ROM or BIOS of some sort(Like almost every SNES emu includes the SPC700 IPLROM), then they are illegal.

Edit: I skimmed that abomination of a topic.

Modanti or whatever was right when he said downloadin' not released into freeware ROMs is illegal, but after that he went batshit insane.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 06:44:19 PM by I.S.T. »
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Deathlike2

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #423 on: July 13, 2011, 08:42:37 PM »
I'm starting to think you guys like this version of the matrix.  :tongue:

These fights are bordering on pointless.
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darkmage

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #424 on: July 15, 2011, 11:31:51 AM »
Quote from: Deathlike2 on July 13, 2011, 08:42:37 PM
I'm starting to think you guys like this version of the matrix.  :tongue:

These fights are bordering on pointless.

The only reason I got involved is because I can't stand people who blindly follow the law because it is the law. Especially when they turn around and start spouting what they think the law means. And that's what he did in response to my post: "I wish it wasn't the way it is, but it is the way it is."

After that tripe, I was done.

I would like a more "open-source" mentality in the world, as opposed to this proprietary mentality that currently has corporations turning our government away from democracy and toward plutarchy. I would like people to have the ability to help each other without having to reflexively cover their ass against the consequences of providing that help.

/soapbox
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Lenophis

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #425 on: April 03, 2012, 02:28:37 PM »
Time to revive this thread with a doozy of idiocy from non other than Meeple, all occuring in this thread.
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assassin

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #426 on: April 03, 2012, 10:36:08 PM »
yup, it was/is maddening.
(btw, that first link requires you to be logged in, so you might wanna rework it into just a post view.)

what cracked me up was when he said, "You can make it a long winded explanation as much as you want". :D  while i'm tiring of the thread, it could be an interesting experiment: maybe if i post a few more walls of text, it will cause Meeple to throw up his hands and embrace brevity?
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Deathlike2

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #427 on: April 03, 2012, 11:22:29 PM »
The Capture glitch is most likely an oversight to a lot of special weapon algos followed by the use of the Merit Award... which is also why Gogo and Gau slowly got crippled...

Ideally, you want to disable some of the effects of the weapons for the sole purpose of allowing increased potential damage, despite the "oddity" effects. For instance, removing the instant death aspect of some weapons make them significantly more useful in the sense of an "alternate attack", which is actually nice in some ways. I would like to use those special weapon w/o true negative consequences (like the Chicken Knife in FF5).

However, I think there is a more realistic expectation that some weapons don't lose their properties in the first place (it should just be a combo of attack and steal). Although IIRC, you don't steal if you fail to hit your target in the first place (which borders on FF4A's Capture stupidity - only attacking on successful steals).

Even then.. I don't give a rat's ass to it. I'm starting to like the ValientKnife more than the Wing Edge though.

Speaking of Wing Edge - I kinda wished that those and the Boomerangs were enabled for Gogo. Although I'm biased towards the Gradeus for Gogo...
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 11:48:05 PM by Deathlike2 »
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assassin

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #428 on: April 04, 2012, 12:12:42 AM »
Deathlike2: is Chicken Knife's fleeing normally implemented as a spellcast (e.g. if Escape is a spell)?  i'm curious what about FF5's Capture makes that disabled.

Lenophis: slightly off-topic, but i'm wondering why Square implemented elemental absorption the way they did:

Code: [Select]
C2/0BE2: B9 CC 3B     LDA $3BCC,Y (Absorbed elements)
C2/0BE5: 2C A1 11     BIT $11A1
C2/0BE8: F0 08        BEQ $0BF2   (branch if none are used in attack)
C2/0BEA: A5 F2        LDA $F2
C2/0BEC: 49 01        EOR #$01
C2/0BEE: 85 F2        STA $F2     (toggle healing flag)
it would've required less instructions to just set the healing flag outright.  so assuming Square meant to toggle and didn't have a brainfart when typing the code, that leaves me curious why they chose this way.

i don't think it was meant for Runic, because i agree with your bugfix and your "lightning rod" argument.
i don't think it was meant for reversing Undead-induced healing, since i said in the GameFAQs topic that doing a double negative for Poison (i.e. flipping the damage to healing for undead target, then flipping back to damage for Poison absorbing target) strikes me as something that wasn't by design.  Master ZED disagreed way back when (2004, iirc), and thinks Square did intend the double negative.

following my views to their conclusion, the bit toggling for elemental absorption (as opposed to just bit setting) is pointless, unless there's another application i overlooked.  yet i don't think it was done by accident, either.  so i have painted myself into a bit of a corner, yes. :/
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Deathlike2

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #429 on: April 04, 2012, 12:50:32 AM »
Quote from: assassin on April 04, 2012, 12:12:42 AM
Deathlike2: is Chicken Knife's fleeing normally implemented as a spellcast (e.g. if Escape is a spell)?  i'm curious what about FF5's Capture makes that disabled.

It's actually implemented as a command !Flee

In FF5, the Thief Knife randomly executes the !Steal command like FF6 does, but in general, a small number of special attacks/effects are based off a command version.

One of the bows executes the same command as !X-Fight (4 "weaker" attacks, like the offering).

The Dancing Knife has the effect of the !Dance command (which is one of 4 possible attacks/results).

There's probably a few more, but that's how it appears to be implemented (which probably made it easier to program and/or test).


Quote
Lenophis: slightly off-topic, but i'm wondering why Square implemented elemental absorption the way they did:

Code: [Select]
C2/0BE2: B9 CC 3B     LDA $3BCC,Y (Absorbed elements)
C2/0BE5: 2C A1 11     BIT $11A1
C2/0BE8: F0 08        BEQ $0BF2   (branch if none are used in attack)
C2/0BEA: A5 F2        LDA $F2
C2/0BEC: 49 01        EOR #$01
C2/0BEE: 85 F2        STA $F2     (toggle healing flag)
it would've required less instructions to just set the healing flag outright.  so assuming Square meant to toggle and didn't have a brainfart when typing the code, that leaves me curious why they chose this way.

i don't think it was meant for Runic, because i agree with your bugfix and your "lightning rod" argument.

TBH, Runic probably shouldn't be affected be elemental resistances/immunity/absorption, but considering that Osmose is really powerful, I'm not really losing sleep to the mechanics of Runic.


Quote
i don't think it was meant for reversing Undead-induced healing, since i said in the GameFAQs topic that doing a double negative for Poison (i.e. flipping the damage to healing for undead target, then flipping back to damage for Poison absorbing target) strikes me as something that wasn't by design.  Master ZED disagreed way back when (2004, iirc), and thinks Square did intend the double negative.

following my views to their conclusion, the bit toggling for elemental absorption (as opposed to just bit setting) is pointless, unless there's another application i overlooked.  yet i don't think it was done by accident, either.  so i have painted myself into a bit of a corner, yes. :/

I think Square intended something with the Thornlet (perma-Seizure), but I don't think it was thorough as FF5 when it came to "strong armor with conditions". I do believe Seizure was meant to be Regen for undead (doesn't Regen work negatively with Undead in the first place?) I don't think Bio was entirely meant to be tied to Undead (I could be wrong), but the fix MasterZED had for Undead/poison doesn't apply to Bio Blaster (and maybe others IIRC).
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assassin

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #430 on: April 04, 2012, 03:24:44 AM »
Quote from: Deathlike2 on April 04, 2012, 12:50:32 AM
It's actually implemented as a command !Flee

ah, ok.

Quote
In FF5, the Thief Knife randomly executes the !Steal command like FF6 does, but in general, a small number of special attacks/effects are based off a command version.

One of the bows executes the same command as !X-Fight (4 "weaker" attacks, like the offering).

The Dancing Knife has the effect of the !Dance command (which is one of 4 possible attacks/results).

There's probably a few more, but that's how it appears to be implemented (which probably made it easier to program and/or test).

are those two weapons usable with Mug?  if so, does it mess with implementation of their custom commands?  same question for Anti-Magic Bow's Mute.

Quote
I think Square intended something with the Thornlet (perma-Seizure), but I don't think it was thorough as FF5 when it came to "strong armor with conditions". I do believe Seizure was meant to be Regen for undead (doesn't Regen work negatively with Undead in the first place?) I don't think Bio was entirely meant to be tied to Undead (I could be wrong),

what do you mean by the Bio part?

i was thinking that Square gave "Invert damage if undead" to the four Poison-elemental spells (see below for list) to make them heal undead..  then decided, "screw it, since Poison is an element, we can just assign absorption to that element to most undead monsters".  but forgot to clear the (then-obsolete) "invert damage if undead" flag from the spells.  of course, that last part is just speculation.

i can't tell if you were getting at a similar theory there, or something different.

Quote
but the fix MasterZED had for Undead/poison doesn't apply to Bio Blaster (and maybe others IIRC).

correct.  does have "Invert damage if undead" property: Poison, Bio, Virite, Acid Rain, and Poison status itself.  doesn't have property: Bio Blaster, Bio Blast (MagiTek attack), and Poison Frog.  of the latter, only Bio Blaster sees more than fleeting use.

Quote
(doesn't Regen work negatively with Undead in the first place?)

yup.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #431 on: April 04, 2012, 06:24:01 AM »
Quote from: assassin on April 04, 2012, 03:24:44 AM
Quote from: Deathlike2 on April 04, 2012, 12:50:32 AM
It's actually implemented as a command !Flee

ah, ok.

Quote
In FF5, the Thief Knife randomly executes the !Steal command like FF6 does, but in general, a small number of special attacks/effects are based off a command version.

One of the bows executes the same command as !X-Fight (4 "weaker" attacks, like the offering).

The Dancing Knife has the effect of the !Dance command (which is one of 4 possible attacks/results).

There's probably a few more, but that's how it appears to be implemented (which probably made it easier to program and/or test).

are those two weapons usable with Mug?  if so, does it mess with implementation of their custom commands?  same question for Anti-Magic Bow's Mute.

Pretty much any weapon can be used with Mug, but their special ability/effect is disabled. I would suggest you read up on the FF5 Algo doc (it is pretty concise). The command that causes a few "oddities" would be !X-Fight. A few weapons don't work quite the same.. sometimes for the better (Drain Sword - lowest acc becomes exceptional) and sometimes meh (some of the Harps and other "magic" based weaponry doesn't operate).

Quote
Quote
I think Square intended something with the Thornlet (perma-Seizure), but I don't think it was thorough as FF5 when it came to "strong armor with conditions". I do believe Seizure was meant to be Regen for undead (doesn't Regen work negatively with Undead in the first place?) I don't think Bio was entirely meant to be tied to Undead (I could be wrong),

what do you mean by the Bio part?

I mean Poison elemental. Square is usually consistent on putting a theme with undead with few exceptions. FF4 generally has Undead that is weak vs Holy and Fire, but some monsters are not weak vs Holy (Lilith, Scarmaglione in Elemental battle version, although FF4A added the Enchida, which is woefully inconsistent)

Quote
Quote
but the fix MasterZED had for Undead/poison doesn't apply to Bio Blaster (and maybe others IIRC).

correct.  does have "Invert damage if undead" property: Poison, Bio, Virite, Acid Rain, and Poison status itself.  doesn't have property: Bio Blaster, Bio Blast (MagiTek attack), and Poison Frog.  of the latter, only Bio Blaster sees more than fleeting use.

Custom code?
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assassin

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #432 on: April 04, 2012, 07:55:28 AM »
Quote from: Deathlike2 on April 04, 2012, 06:24:01 AM
Quote from: assassin
are those two weapons usable with Mug?  if so, does it mess with implementation of their custom commands?  same question for Anti-Magic Bow's Mute.

Pretty much any weapon can be used with Mug, but their special ability/effect is disabled. I would suggest you read up on the FF5 Algo doc (it is pretty concise).

i saw that, and it says Mug disables spells.  i shouldn't have asked about Mute (senile moment), but i was wondering whether Mug disables weapon commands the same way it disables spells.


Quote
Quote
correct.  does have "Invert damage if undead" property: Poison, Bio, Virite, Acid Rain, and Poison status itself.  doesn't have property: Bio Blaster, Bio Blast (MagiTek attack), and Poison Frog.  of the latter, only Bio Blaster sees more than fleeting use.

Custom code?

no, "Invert damage if undead" is a property present in the attack data.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #433 on: April 04, 2012, 09:30:58 AM »
Quote from: assassin on April 04, 2012, 07:55:28 AM
no, "Invert damage if undead" is a property present in the attack data.

It does sound like oversight IMO for those attacks.
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assassin

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #434 on: April 04, 2012, 10:19:19 AM »
yep, i could see how Bio Blast and Poison Frog would be overlooked (not so much with Bio Blaster, though).  the thing is, "Invert damage if undead" is essentially a dummied property in non-healing and non-draining attacks before ZED's patch came along.  so it's hard to say whether the true oversight was not giving the 3 attacks the property initially, or keeping it in the 4 other attacks after assigning Poison elemental absorption to most undeads.
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