Library of the Ancients => Final Fantasy IV Research & Development => Topic started by: Deathlike2 on March 07, 2008, 11:42:19 PM
Title: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 07, 2008, 11:42:19 PM
It's no secret that when you fight the monsters around Baron while you are at level 99, those monsters never seem to compete.
However, there is a logical explanation. All enemies have some sort of speed range. The problem is that if there is a mismatch, the ATB bar totally favors the faster group. It also changes significantly how some things behave.
For instance, if you were to fight the EvilMask (FF2US name) @ a lower level, the Reflect spell it casts seems to last pretty damn long.. to the point when he casts a second Reflect on itself, it is being reflected.
Now, if you were to fight the Evilmask at level 99, while everyone's Agility stat is maxed out as much as possible, you may find that the Evilmask's Reflect spell that it cast on itself may have already disappeared already and you will watch it proceed to kill itself with its own magic.
So, if you are hacking the Agility/Speeds of the monster, make sure to note the average Agility of the party that should be engaging that monster. Having the monster's speed go too high is game changing (though not many enemies exhibit this behavior as far as I can tell) as much as speed going to too low (like the Behemoth).
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 08, 2008, 02:22:50 PM
Something worth considering... assuming you are running normal battle speed, and comparing Cecil vs Rydia at level 1, you can see how it is possible for Cecil to execute up to 3 commands before Rydia gets her turn.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Lenophis on March 08, 2008, 02:58:31 PM
Ugh, well, I guess that makes sense. That also explains why Haste is a huge boost, and Slow is a massive penalty. I suspected the Plague hasting Haste on the entire party was to make the death countdown go faster, and this pretty much confirms it.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 08, 2008, 03:02:07 PM
Ugh, well, I guess that makes sense. That also explains why Haste is a huge boost, and Slow is a massive penalty. I suspected the Plague hasting Haste on the entire party was to make the death countdown go faster, and this pretty much confirms it.
Acrtually, I don't think that's the case. I believe Count uses a separate timer, independant of everyone's relative ATB. The Plague using Haste on you would succeed more often vs low magic defense multipliers and evade, which implies it favoring lower levels. In fact, that "attack" is meant to help low level groups succeed.
If you use the PAR code 7E1800FE and 7e180101, you will fight the Plague battle. The order in which the characters die is in the battle order I have listed for leveling up.
This always occurs in that order, regardless of their Agility stat. This is also why Count works effectively the same regardless the level you have in the game.
Edit: Whoever propagated the Count/Haste rumor is a total douchbag.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: JCE3000GT on March 08, 2008, 06:45:56 PM
Ugh, well, I guess that makes sense. That also explains why Haste is a huge boost, and Slow is a massive penalty. I suspected the Plague hasting Haste on the entire party was to make the death countdown go faster, and this pretty much confirms it.
I pretty much agree here. I'm strongly for the theory that Haste does indeed increase the speed of count. I've casted Slow on one of my characters in said Plague battle and they counted down slower than the rest.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 08, 2008, 07:43:50 PM
I'm still not seeing it, there is no correlation as far as I can tell.
The Count sequence is delayed when you're executing commands.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Entroper on March 08, 2008, 09:13:04 PM
This is true, but only because Haste was cast on everyone simultaneously. Count's speed is not related to your agility, but it is related to whether or not you have haste/slow cast on you. The Count/Haste thing isn't a "rumor", to verify this, just have Count status active on two party members, cast Haste on one of them, and watch them die twice as fast. Try fighting one of those eye monsters in the Lunar Subterrane, the ones that look like the Plague boss but just cast Count on you individually instead of all at once.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 08, 2008, 09:16:26 PM
This is true, but only because Haste was cast on everyone simultaneously. Count's speed is not related to your agility, but it is related to whether or not you have haste/slow cast on you. The Count/Haste thing isn't a "rumor", to verify this, just have Count status active on two party members, cast Haste on one of them, and watch them die twice as fast. Try fighting one of those eye monsters in the Lunar Subterrane, the ones that look like the Plague boss but just cast Count on you individually instead of all at once.
I'll look into this right now.. I was planning on documenting Count status.
The monster you are thinking of is Fataleye (FF2US name), Allemagne (FF4 J2e translation), and Ahirman (FF4A).
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 08, 2008, 09:41:10 PM
Ok.. I honestly don't see the difference when Haste or Slow is applied. I'll have to tweak the Agility stat and normalize to the enemy's Agility to see if there's impact. Clearly Agi > 70 is too high to see a difference that I can tell.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Phoenix on March 09, 2008, 03:36:09 AM
I couldn't tell a difference with Haste either, though I only fought one test battle. I was checking to see whether Stop stops the counter, which it indeed does. It seems like Haste/Slow would affect it then, but it appears people are getting different results.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 09, 2008, 04:07:24 AM
Well, Stop is supposed to "stop" the target.. which makes a lot of sense anyways.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on March 09, 2008, 04:27:09 AM
Ugh, well, I guess that makes sense. That also explains why Haste is a huge boost, and Slow is a massive penalty. I suspected the Plague hasting Haste on the entire party was to make the death countdown go faster, and this pretty much confirms it.
I pretty much agree here. I'm strongly for the theory that Haste does indeed increase the speed of count. I've casted Slow on one of my characters in said Plague battle and they counted down slower than the rest.
Same here, I used to use this strategy quite a bit before I realized it's really not needed, just a hold over from the days when I actually had to look at the menus to input commands. :tongue:
Deathlike2: One thing you might want to look into for your documentation is how longer you can sit at 00 without dying. IIRC, it's a whole lot longer in FF2us than FF4.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 09, 2008, 04:33:52 AM
Ugh, well, I guess that makes sense. That also explains why Haste is a huge boost, and Slow is a massive penalty. I suspected the Plague hasting Haste on the entire party was to make the death countdown go faster, and this pretty much confirms it.
I pretty much agree here. I'm strongly for the theory that Haste does indeed increase the speed of count. I've casted Slow on one of my characters in said Plague battle and they counted down slower than the rest.
Same here, I used to use this strategy quite a bit before I realized it's really not needed, just a hold over from the days when I actually had to look at the menus to input commands. :tongue:
Deathlike2: One thing you might want to look into for your documentation is how longer you can sit at 00 without dying. IIRC, it's a whole lot longer in FF2us than FF4.
Ok, I have yet to plan a good strategy for this though.. I'll probably end up modding the Agility to whatever is at level 70 (it is shockingly scary that Agility at that level for the girls is at 32). The only other thing that supposedly works is running away, as that seems to switch/delay timers.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Phoenix on March 09, 2008, 05:08:44 AM
Jump doesn't stop the counter, and Hide only makes it stop at 0 (meaning when you show yourself you're dead). Running does delay the timer, but the delay between command choice and execution is also delayed, meaning it doesn't help very much.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 09, 2008, 05:12:39 AM
Jump doesn't stop the counter, and Hide only makes it stop at 0 (meaning when you show yourself you're dead). Running does delay the timer, but the delay between command choice and execution is also delayed, meaning it doesn't help very much.
I just tested the running part.. and yes, that's sounds about right.. I think it is actually more detrimental instead (the ATB bar appears to stop in FF4A).. so yes, I agree.
Count has go to be the most evil of all statuses... and unblockable to boot.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on March 09, 2008, 05:45:18 AM
Count has go to be the most evil of all statuses... and unblockable to boot.
Which makes it even more ironic that they gave Easy Type Zeromus the ability to use it...
Yes. That's the problem with the FF4ET "being FF2 in Jap" undeserved reputation...
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 17, 2008, 10:08:19 PM
Linking old thread: http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=118.0 Different related thread: http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=425.0
Slow certainly seems to have an impact, although it seems to emphasized with slower characters in the party.
It seems to only max out twice according to the math. Speed can be slowed down by a max of 16 more points. The item that slows down targets (Spider's Silk or whatever it is called) maxes on this aspect. Slow (spell power of 8) needs to be cast twice to max it as well. These values seem to factor against Agility to an extent (unlikely involving multiplication, but more of a cumulative effect).
I will have to check Slow against Split targeting though to be sure.
Similarily goes with Haste/Fast, but with a lesser impact. You can only max it out twice as via the Haste/Fast spell. Haste decreases the critical value by 3. The item that hastes the item user (Hermes Shoes) attempts to decrease the value by 8, but the cap is at 4 only.
The math against the internal value is easy (I thought it was some magical formula, but obviously I was wrong). If the value is > 128, 256-spell power for use in subtraction... Otherwise, use that spell power value for addition.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 22, 2008, 09:27:36 AM
I'm just doing post-70 leveling up in FF4 (it is painful, mind you) and have fought many of those Count inducing floating POS monsters.
The Count attribute as far as I can tell is simply an individual timer that goes down as time passes, irrevelent of Haste/Slow/Agility. Nothing influences it other than Stop, so go figure. I don't know what you guys have seen, but you need to find a way to reproduce the behavior you describe so I can test this properly.
Title: Re: Agility and ATB Speed - Theory of Relativity
Post by: Deathlike2 on April 18, 2008, 07:28:00 PM
Ok, well testing was done and these are the results:
Count status does is not affected by Slow or Haste, only Stop.