However even in this a few problems present themselves. Each Tile Warp sets the next area's X/Y before that map even exists. Because of that setting those up to be applicable could be tricky without a specific algorithm to approach that (I don't know if the FFV and VI version deals with that)
Part of the process of generating a map will be setting it entrance and exit points. Once we have the entrance points for all the maps, can't we simply go back and set the triggers for each map's exit point to lead to the next map's entrance point? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying? I can see there being an issue going to/from the underworld, but in general won't that work?
Using the "pregenerated map" strategy, or using the "randomize among existing FF4 maps" strategy, we would have to associate the "entrance" location with each pregenerated map manually. (Although I'm sure just getting the algorithm to blindly search the map for a warp tile would also work as a proof of concept).
While it will take a while to get the new maps to line up with everything, I think it would work much better than to deal with it randomly. That said one might be able to create a tool that creates randomized FFIV maps and then we can build on those until they look presentable for the actual game. As it stands though FFIV has a decent supply of rooms to start with, so as a proof of concept we should probably stick with the original dungeon maps, then when we see we have the randomization system working properly, than we can include custom maps.
Sounds like a plan
Randomizing the locations of chests seems like it shouldn't be too difficult until we assure that these locations don't block a path. I wouldn't know how to avoid that specific issue.
As I said, there are known ways to do this that roguelikes use; although come to think of it, in those the treasures are usually walkable. Off the top of my head, one way to do it would be to have it suggest a location at complete random, then probe that tile and the four cardinal surrounding tiles for walkability. If the tile itself is solid already, making it a chest is guaranteed to not cut you off. If it has a walkable tile in at least one of the cardinal directions, it means the chest is accessible and not buried completely within a wall. Assuming we use an algorithm that creates a single unbroken path (as opposed to something like some of the Babel floors where you have two paths that have no access to each other), then this should guarantee the chests are both reachable and will never block you off; that said, they will be often found "up against the wall", as the only way to find them in the middle of the floor would be if the dungeon had naturally carved itself in a way that left a little hole in the middle (not impossible, but seems like it would be the exception as opposed to the rule). Actually if we wanted to increase the chance of those, we could even modify the check to ask, "is it
either a wall tile adjacent cardinally to at least one floor tile,
or is it any tile surrounded in all eight directions by floor".
This all sounds very workable and shouldn't be all of that difficult to setup. The mention of dungeon level (which doesn't exist normally) would mean that a slight bit of extra programming for the game would be involved to keep track of how deep you've gone. I am pretty sure a lot of dungeon randomizers use a similar formula and finding a byte and space to add that extra code to "add 1" when you leave a room would not be difficult. What may be tricky is developing these treasure drops. Will the chests by set dynamically, perhaps included in the "add 1" portion of the programming? And if so, how do we decide what item falls where? I don't know how the FFVI Randomizer does it, but that might be worth a look.
I'm not sure why we'd need extra code in the game unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean here. The way I picture it, the dungeon floor concept would only matter during the randomization process, which is all done before anything is written to the rom (I figure we'd construct everything in memory first, then essentially patch the rom as the last step). So before we've written anything to the rom, we have dungeon maps generated, including chest locations, and now we're figuring out what to put in them. Well, the maps are already ordered 1-255 or however deep we intend to go (200 is probably plenty and will leave room for maps that are not so RLE-friendly), so the map index essentially
is the dungeon level. So at the step when we're figuring out treasures we can say, ok, this chest is in this range so it should be this power level of equipment, if it's an equipment (it might be a potion or money or something). Trapped chests should probably be rare and maybe can contain an item of a slightly higher level than would otherwise be there normally. Anyway, the point is, by the time the rom is ready to go, the game will already have chests with contents in them that we randomized but made sure they were in appropriate power level ranges.
Neat ideas! Shops would probably work on a similar algorithm as the treasure and their wares dependent on the floor you're on. However with the way FFIV is setup pre-set shops may be for the best. We would need to do something about pricing in such a case, I'd say.
For sure. I figure preset shops is definitely the thing to do initially and just randomize where they end up. In later iterations we can distribute shop locations first, then randomize their wares based on where they landed.
Oh yes, some major balancing would need to be done to make every character eventually somewhat viable. Maybe even differentiate Child Rydia and Adult Rydia in some fashion.
I had completely forgotten about that problem... too much Unprecedented Crisis LOL!
My preference on that would be to say ahead of time that she's either always a kid or always an adult, no transformation. Or what we can do is pick one default and have an option you can set in the randomizer that patches it so that she's the other. So say by default she's always Adult Rydia, but when you run the program, you can set an option to make her instead be always a child (it would really just be a graphics swap).
Rare and dummied equipment would probably need turned into other equipment so more characters could stand on their own (this is where the GBA/PSP version has the original beat by far)
Agreed. For the purposes of this project, I'm of the philosophy that we should stick as close as we can to the vanilla content, changing only what needs to be changed for the game to be playable and not horribly broken. Salvaging equipment that is borked (Dummy sword), inaccessible (Assassin, Hand Axe), or rare but questionable (Cursed Ring comes to mind) to make content that can help characters stay viable is a change worth making. I'd even be fine with changing game code for certain commands to make them more scalable (though if we do this I will definitely need your help LOL).
There's another possibility that we can explore: In FF4kster, you can change item ranges. In theory, this includes what items would count as weapons and armors and what items count as consumables or tools. Suppose we
moved a bunch of items around in such a way that we could ditch a bunch of plot items that were either dummied to begin with or rendered useless due to the lack of any remaining plot in favor of more actual weapons and armor?? This idea originally occurred to me to solve the problem of how to help Yang in UC but moving things around when I was that far in was too daunting of a task (I would have to go and adjust all the chest contents, the starting equipment, anything dropped or "looked for" in events, make sure I didn't miss anything... I was like "nope").
Edge is pretty broken early, yes. Did we ever make a hack so that all characters have Level 1 stats and levelups? Or was there just no space for that?
Levelup data is packed pretty tight IIRC. However, If we're willing to ditch someone (I vote FuSoYa), we might be able to do it. If not level 1, then almost certainly level 10 as a lot of characters started there in vanilla anyway (plus that way we can salvage a few levelups from Rydia and Paladin).
Would Paladin and Dark Knight be just separate independent characters? (I'm in favor of this.) If so, what default names do we give them? Both Cecil?
It does fit your skillset, there's no denying that. Entroper has the Overworld Editor in hand (I think it's compatible with FF4kster), so I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. You did a Phenomenal job with FF4kster and should be rightfully proud of what you managed to do with it.
Thanks, that actually means a lot ^_^
Work and school have kept me consistently on my toes, but I've learned I work much better as an assistant than director (highly unfortunate, that) so if you need some help, I can do what I can with the time allotted to me.
Thanks! This also means a lot! How about this: I'll use this thread to keep updates both on the progress I've made and any challenges I'm experiencing as well as what's left to do, and if you see anything you feel like you can help with, go right ahead.
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May have several chests in places that are accessible yet do not block your path (they are empty because I don't have triggers implemented yet)
); rather, since you will have all the other characters to choose from, she has to be compared to Palom and the two need to be distinguished from each other strategically in ways that matter. Normally, Rydia is pretty much just a black mage with some summons. She has slightly less natural magic power and not quite as rampy of a spell learning progression.
