Bit 1: Unknown Bit 2: Unknown Bit 3: Unknown Bit 4: Unknown Bit 5: Unknown Bit 6: Long Range Bit 7: Throwable Bit 8: Metallic
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 12, 2007, 10:19:39 PM
Bit 3 is consistant for being a Hammer... anti-Machine, but also 2 handed Bit 5 is Lightning Arrows aren't special, other than being Lightning elemental+Anti-Mech Bit 2 is confusing.. I've never used the HandAxe (I could probably hack that into a save and see if it did anything).. only thing that is common between the two is that they are one handed and I don't think the HandAxe is anti-Giant... Bit 1 has nothing in common with any of the listed weapons
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 12, 2007, 10:21:18 PM
Anti-machine and two handed are handled separately from these bits. The only thing I can think of for bit 1 is maybe an increased chance or critical hits.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 12, 2007, 10:26:37 PM
My guess is that Bit1 prevents critical hits from doing 2x damage... then again, critical hits never seem to do more than like 25-50% and in some cases seem to do average attack damage at best.
Edit: I think that bit completely prevents critical hits.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 12, 2007, 10:45:00 PM
Anti-machine and two handed are handled separately from these bits. The only thing I can think of for bit 1 is maybe an increased chance or critical hits.
That could be it.. Cid's Hammers seem to do critical hits a lot, now that I think about it.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: JCE3000GT on December 13, 2007, 12:08:22 AM
Burn off that bit on every weapon and choose ONE weapon to test it to see if it PREVENT or INCREASES the crit rate..?
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 13, 2007, 08:16:32 AM
As long as I've used the above weapons (for bit 1).. I don't remember critical hits with said weapons... if at all but rare. Think about how often the Crystal Sword critical hits.. and that really dawned on me.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: JCE3000GT on December 13, 2007, 09:47:52 PM
Seems to me that Hammers have a higher crit rate...the only weapons I can remember that have actually crit'd for me before that aren't hammers are any of the "holy " class weapons. Crystal Sword, Legend, Light Sword, Excalibur, White Spear.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 13, 2007, 10:06:27 PM
Seems to me that Hammers have a higher crit rate...the only weapons I can remember that have actually crit'd for me before that aren't hammers are any of the "holy " class weapons. Crystal Sword, Legend, Light Sword, Excalibur, White Spear.
I think you might want to try the Crystal Sword some more.. it critical hits rather infrequently.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: JCE3000GT on December 13, 2007, 10:26:08 PM
Seems to me that Hammers have a higher crit rate...the only weapons I can remember that have actually crit'd for me before that aren't hammers are any of the "holy " class weapons. Crystal Sword, Legend, Light Sword, Excalibur, White Spear.
I think you might want to try the Crystal Sword some more.. it critical hits rather infrequently.
What I meant was the ONLY weapons I can remember doing a crit AT ALL were the holy weapons. Yes it crit's rather infrequently, but I've never seen a knife or ninja sword crit.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 13, 2007, 10:34:05 PM
Seems to me that Hammers have a higher crit rate...the only weapons I can remember that have actually crit'd for me before that aren't hammers are any of the "holy " class weapons. Crystal Sword, Legend, Light Sword, Excalibur, White Spear.
I think you might want to try the Crystal Sword some more.. it critical hits rather infrequently.
What I meant was the ONLY weapons I can remember doing a crit AT ALL were the holy weapons. Yes it crit's rather infrequently, but I've never seen a knife or ninja sword crit.
I've definately seen them crit.. I spent a lot of time with Edge using the Ninja Sword+Mute Knife just annihilating Wizards left+right.
However, I haven't really used Knives by themselves as often.. I attack with the Dancing Knife when the special attack is ineffective...
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 15, 2007, 11:14:33 AM
My current guess for Bit2 is that Giants (well, maybe specifically Ogres/Mad Ogres) tend to target the wielder of said weapon. If Hand Axe weren't a dummied item, it would be usable by Cid so he could hold a shield as well. However, Hand Axe doesn't happen have the Giants attribute, but I get the feeling that this would have hurt Cid (while in the Dark Elf's Cave), given how he's built to simply take damage up the ass.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 15, 2007, 06:06:40 PM
Ok, after doing a lot of Mech trashing with Lightning Arrows, I've come to a conclusion.... I believe it is intended to insure a hit... without actually upping your hit rate and effectively your damage output.
This way, it would allow Fusoya with a Bow+Arrow combo (pick any bow and combine with Thunder/Lightning Arrows) and it wouldn't suck outright. This combo actually makes him useful. :omghax:
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 16, 2007, 03:46:58 AM
Good finds. I might do some testing with bit 4 later, since it's not used by anything in the game. Of course that could just mean no effect was ever programed for it, but I'm hoping for some cool unused property.
I'll also test your bit 5 theory by sticking it on a weapon with a 0% hit rate.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 16, 2007, 10:32:37 AM
I'll tell you this much... ElvenBow+Lit Arrow on Fusoya == passable damage of ~1000 on any mech in the Giant.
That's awesome compared to the 0-150 pts of damage with the Silence Staff.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 16, 2007, 11:15:13 AM
Giving the dark sword to 0 accuracy and setting bit 5 did nothing, it missed just as often as without it. I'm curious if the property only affects arrows because they're handled differently by the game, I'm going to test that next.
Bit 4 doesn't seem to do anything.
Edit: Rydia is just as inaccurate with Iron Arrows with the bit set too...maybe it only takes effect at higher levels? I'll do a test later in the game next.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 16, 2007, 11:26:08 AM
Try it against enemy type weakness.
It is worth pointing out that if you do poor damage (1x whatever), you will be doing essentially be doing 0 damage aka Miss!
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Phoenix on January 17, 2008, 05:14:36 AM
Did anyone ever figure out what the other 5 bits are for (besides Metallic, Throwable, and Long Range)? I tried doing my own tests, but couldn't see any significant changes.
Also, where is the info that determines which weapons are 2-handed? As far as I can tell it's not within the normal Item Stats Data. Is it specified somewhere else?
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on January 17, 2008, 11:57:22 AM
Have you at least looked into the comments/ideas that are in this thread? I'm pretty sure the critical hit ones are solid.. and maybe the ogre bit. I still have no clue what the Lightning Arrow's special bit is for...
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Entroper on January 17, 2008, 12:18:33 PM
You guys are using the data from FF2US or FF4 Super Famicom, right?
It's worth pointing out that none of those bits are used in FF4A, US version. Only metal, throwable, back row are used -- there is no value higher than 7 in that field. :hmm:
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on January 17, 2008, 01:06:39 PM
Those bits may not been as important.. or they may have been relocated elsewhere...
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Phoenix on January 17, 2008, 04:28:41 PM
I have looked into the ideas in this thread, by activating those bits on other weapons and looking for those (or any) effects. But, they don't really seem to pan out, at least in my test cases -- I can't tell any difference at all. So, I'm not sure, either my tests weren't enough or they have some other meaning. It is interesting that they aren't there in FF4A...since they don't seem to have much of an effect on the game (that we can tell) it seems a likely possibility that they just removed them.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on January 17, 2008, 04:38:54 PM
It could be recoded somewhere else.
After all, it only accounts for the strangeness in FF4A where the character takes strangely a bit too long standing there after the hit, as if checking the weapons and see if it is a match to cause special effects... even if they don't have a special effect.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Entroper on January 17, 2008, 04:52:43 PM
Game logic shouldn't slow down the game to the point where you'd notice a lag -- that's just poor ATB engine programming in FF4A.
I don't think the bits were relocated. Otherwise, there would be a set of 5 bits elsewhere in the item data that I wouldn't have pegged down.
http://entroper.no-ip.org/TheBatcave/FFRev2(2).xls is my reference. There are some unused bits in the item flags, but they are just that -- unused, so they aren't the relocated bits. I think they're just gone, unless there's a completely separate table somewhere, which seems unlikely. More likely is that they never did anything originally.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Phoenix on January 17, 2008, 06:04:47 PM
Yeah, it seems likely to me that they were never used in the first place. At least, it appears that they still don't affect anything.
Also, nevermind about the 2-Handedness bit, I figured it out.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Phoenix on January 26, 2008, 07:04:54 AM
Another question on the 2-handedness:
I thought the bit signifying this was the 6th bit of the 7th byte of a weapon's stats (e.g. the Avenger sword's equipability byte is 27, 20 for the 6th bit being on and 07 for the equip index). Is this right? Because when I change it on any weapon I've tested so far, it doesn't change anything. Am I totally off on this?
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Paladin on February 04, 2008, 04:22:12 PM
I thought the bit signifying this was the 6th bit of the 7th byte of a weapon's stats (e.g. the Avenger sword's equipability byte is 27, 20 for the 6th bit being on and 07 for the equip index). Is this right? Because when I change it on any weapon I've tested so far, it doesn't change anything. Am I totally off on this?
I was reading your response to this and I looked into that myself...as there are quite a bit of mods to the weapons I'd like to make eventually...
Originally I thought the extra three bits in that "Who Equip" byte didn't mean anything, and just the first 5 bits specify the character according to the 32 values in the table at $07A750...
However When I expand all the bits and look at weapons and equipment there are patterns...
On weapons... Only 2-Handed weapons (Axes, Hammers, Harps, Avenger Sword, Dummied Spare Sword) have bit5 set true. Only Bows have bit6 set true Only Arrows have bit7 set true. No other weapons have any of these bits set.
On equipment... Shields have NO bits set. Only Helmets / Hats have bit6 set Only Armor / Clothing has bit7 set Only Gauntlets / Rings / Accessories have bit6 & bit7 set.
But your absolutely correct, changing these bits don't seem to have any direct effect on how equipment is actually "equipped" in the game menu. I tried making a one handed sword 2-handed flipping bit5 on - no change I tried making a 2-handed axe one handed by flipping bit5 off - no change I also tried making a helmet an armor by flipping bit 7 on and bit 6 off, and again no change...
So it seems the "Equipment Type" and "Equip On Body How" data must be elsewhere. Although these bits seem like they could specify this somehow anyway...it's just not used by the menu system???
(BTW: I count bits as 7 - 0, and I'm using a headered copy of FF-II v1.0 to test.)
On the same issue...and I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but does anyone know where the data that specifies the "Fight" graphics are for weapons? As in a table or something that specifies the game to use what weapon graphic and palette for it, etc...?
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Phoenix on February 04, 2008, 06:57:43 PM
I performed the same tests, and came to the same conclusions about both weapons and armor. However, the Bow bit (which I believe means the weapon is opposite-handed) seems to work. At least, I found greater damage when I turned that bit on and switched the weapon to another hand (I made Cecil ambidextrous for this), unless it was just my imagination. The Arrow bit (which means the weapon is expendable) also seems to work when turned on, if I remember correctly.
This is why I thought it was strange all the other bits didn't work. Maybe I'm crazy and those ones didn't work either, and I imagined it all . . . :hmm:
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on February 05, 2008, 07:31:18 AM
On the same issue...and I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but does anyone know where the data that specifies the "Fight" graphics are for weapons? As in a table or something that specifies the game to use what weapon graphic and palette for it, etc...?
00: Unknown (Used on Unarmed) 01: Unknown (Used on Swords/Spears/Katanas/Axes) 02: Unknown (Used on Rods/Staves) 03: Unknown (Used on Claws) 04: Unknown (Used on Bows) 05: Unknown (Used on Arrows) 06: Unknown (Used on Shurikens) 07: Boomerang 08: Unknown (Used on FullMoon) 09: Unknown (Used on Harps) 0A: Unknown (Used on Whips) 0B: Unknown (Used on Hammers)
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Phoenix on February 05, 2008, 04:23:50 PM
Dragonsbrethren: Thanks, I was wondering what that data was!
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Paladin on February 06, 2008, 08:05:39 PM
Awesome! Thanks for that info Dragonsbrethren! :happy:
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: HHIPDragonFox on February 08, 2008, 10:56:40 AM
:omg: :wtf:
Finally I found a site/forum about this type of topic. I've been on this type of project for over 7 months and I still can;t find the extra data strings for the weapons bit. What is needed is the Items/weapons' bit for selectable, equipable, sellable, usable(battle/field),throwable, range, etc. I have an almost fully documented tbl/txt and project files awaiting review by all who needs help or could help out.
Edit(2008-02-10 5:20 am gmt-6) :sleep:
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 14, 2008, 09:32:18 AM
I'm starting to think the Axe+Hammer bits are used for a dummied command...
Quote from: Tower of Babil docs - battlemenu.txt
14 Peep 58 one ally/enemy 15 Dummy 60 (Unknown and unused command) 16 Dart 50 one ally/enemy
The command was meant for Cid.. but it never was complete.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on March 14, 2008, 11:53:17 AM
It's certainly looking that way, originally one could have said it was for Rydia but we now know she was going to retain white magic, leaving her with no empty slots.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 14, 2008, 11:57:03 AM
It's certainly looking that way, originally one could have said it was for Rydia but we now know she was going to retain white magic, leaving her with no empty slots.
Well, I have a cool, crazy ass, and imaginative theory.
This command was supposed to "Mechanize" the monster. When used, the monster gets the Mech attribute. That way, the hammers Cid uses don't look silly.
These bits correlate with the Ogre Axe/Hand Axe, Hammers, and Lit Arrows. These bits would "enable" this command to operate.
The Ogre Axe was probably meant to be found at the Magnetic Cave (or maybe even Cave Eblan).. but was retweaked for whatever the reason.
That's just my random cool idea for a hack today.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 25, 2008, 08:30:07 AM
Ok, I found a bug with Bit1.
Apparently the bit doesn't switch off when you have removed that weapon from the character. This implies that every character other than Edge can deal critical hits.
It would be nice if the bug is fixed.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 25, 2008, 11:25:28 AM
Never mind, I have an addendum.
Those special bits, other than metallic as far as I can tell are remembered and not unset when the weapon is unequipped.
The "disable critical hit" bit will always be enabled for Rydia since she comes back with a Whip and Rosa will always have back row compatible weaponry for every weapon he had.
In Edge's case, the back row compat bit needs to be applied to both hands in order to remove the hit rate penalty.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 25, 2008, 05:48:50 PM
Here's some related info on the back row bit, written in a separate thread - http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=455.0
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on July 19, 2008, 09:23:04 PM
:bump:
I was reading over that sourcebook bond697 linked to in the reference book site topic again and noticed something interesting - it pretty much confirms what we thought about the bit on the hammers being for a higher chance of critical hits:
Quote
Hammers Albeit Simple Tools, Splendid Weapons in Cid's Hands Hammers are just hammers, and in the hands of everyone but Cid, their only use is as tools. Cid, however, with his knowledge of machines, can use these hammers as weapons. He can instantly analyze a machine's structure; since he can discover all one's weak points in a single shot, it would be advisable to use them to deliver a sudden, surprise blow to the enemy. Of course, he can also exercise this ability on non-machine-type, organic enemies.
Could just be a fancy way of explaining why Cid can use hammers as weapons, but I think it's more likely they were alluding to the fact that hammers have a higher critical hit chance than other weapons.
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on July 19, 2008, 10:34:54 PM
I've been saying that for a while now. :tongue:
I still don't know what the regular rate is, and what the rate is for extra bit.
My guess is 1 out of 32 normally, and 1 out of 16 or 8 with the extra bit. I'd have to do some extra testing though...
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on October 12, 2009, 09:02:18 PM
Is there any notable behavior with Lit Arrows on Machines?
I think there would be an increased chance of critical hits or something along those lines (perhaps increased attack power?).
It would make sense since that would be most beneficial late game with all the machines (with the Evilmask at the top of the list).
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on February 12, 2012, 04:48:19 PM
:bump: Ya, this is a very old bump, but I think it's worthy of some discussion.
I'm starting to think some of these unknown weapon bits "change" the frequency of the damage distribution. Rather than having an equal chance of targeting any character, it is skewed in some way.
I personally need to test this (although, it would be better if someone found code or find no reference of such code to verify this). Some of the bits are for the Axes.. probably as a "Giant" perfume or something (I can't think of a better word at the moment). Also, Cid's Hammers and the Lightning Arrows apply a similar formula. It may be harder to determine w/o having Cid (since, there are some hints that Cid would come back for the Giant event). I think he would be attracting every machine in an attempt to kick his ass (since, his weapon is designed to smash them).
That is the only logical thing I could come up with. I initially thought it would boost damage in the form of critical hits, but it might just be more obvious that it changes monster targeting... it's hard to test this theory out given some bit changing issues.
Let me know what you guys think.
:edit: I do not believe it affects the randomness of magic targeting....
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Shadow Flare on April 07, 2012, 06:19:39 AM
I'm starting to think the Axe+Hammer bits are used for a dummied command...
Quote from: Tower of Babil docs - battlemenu.txt
14 Peep 58 one ally/enemy 15 Dummy 60 (Unknown and unused command) 16 Dart 50 one ally/enemy
The command was meant for Cid.. but it never was complete.
Found this bit of info about Cid's second command, source provided bellow. Now we know what it was suppose to be named.
FF4j FF2 ひくうてい Airship Dummy
"Unused in any version, but the name appears with the other commands, and the command itself is configured to target all enemies. Presumably meant to be an airstrike. Hacking it into a command list works fine, as long as you never try to use it... doing so crashes the game."
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Deathlike2 on April 07, 2012, 06:18:30 PM
If that is the case, my guess is that it would have been available during the Giant event where Cid would have come back. You don't build a character that was meant to smash machines and never use him in that capacity....
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Grimoire LD on April 30, 2012, 05:51:35 PM
So have those bits been confirmed to deal something with monster targeting?
That would be interesting and make Cid a viably interesting tank.
Also that Airship command is definitely an interesting bit of news. I wonder if it can be seen what data it's trying to draw from and see if there's a way to fix it?
Title: Re: FF2/4 Unknown Weapon Bits
Post by: Grimoire LD on May 03, 2012, 10:57:15 AM
Well this is a little bizarre. But that command... well mostly all it does is crash the game (and/or the emulator) and erase your file, but in my testing (which was using it five or six times) it actually reset the battle as if using the Reset spell from FFV. Is there any possibility that's what its original intention was, or was it just a stray piece of code which it picked up on?