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Deathlike2

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The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« on: March 03, 2008, 03:15:02 AM »
They are simply embarrassing. Nuff said. I'll cite examples later.. but I remember one FAQ saying you should use Holy/White on Zeromus.

That's all one needs to know.
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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2008, 05:36:56 AM »
Indeed. One of the FAQs I read for the PSX version claimed that all the dark knight swords inflict silence when they hit. :lame:

Deathlike2

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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2008, 02:57:57 PM »
Here it is, the biggest offender of them all - http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588330/12766

Quote from: Zeromus battle strat
Then have Cecil
attack normally, have Rosa cast Holy and heal if neccessary

Good idea, insta-kill a member for free.

Quote from: Cecil's Description
      When Cecil does become a Paladin his stats are extremely high from
      those of a Dark Knight, for example a Level 1 Paladin stat's are about
      50% higher than those of a level 20 Dark Knight, just to let you know.

That's an understatement. In fact, it really takes approximately 20 levels before Paladin Cecil even remotely becomes as powerful as his Dark Knight counterpart. The only reason why the DK looks bad by comparisons is the lack of magic evade, due in part of the equipment he gets, but the Paladin actually gains Wisdom and Will, which almost sounds shocking, but isn't really.

Quote from: Kain's strats
      When Kain jumps it takes awhile for him to attack his target and will
      consume about 1.5 turns as it would normally take to attack regularly.
      So if your party's HP is low and your fighting against a powerful boss
      and you need to kill him quick before he kills your party then Jumping
      is not always the best option.

WTF is the guy talking about? Allowing magic to "disappear" plus generally begin the last hope for the party surviving is usually why you want him to Jump.

Quote from: Palom's Bluff command description
      The BLUFF command is used to raise his magic Power, but this only works
      during battle. However it raises his magic power by very little and
      will need to be used serveral times before you see any significant
      results.

Increasing your spell multiplier by 4 must be "weak" huh? What an idiot.

Quote from: Description of Smoke
Also his Smoke command
      is used to run from battles except of course boss battles. At first it
      might not seem useful because you can easily run away from enemies, but
      enemies like EVIL MASK, Behemoth, or Red Dragons you cannot run away
      from except with the use of Smoke.

Man, I just want to hang the guy.

Quote from: Yang's Command List Descriptions
NOTE: Dont' bother using the Power Command with Yang. It takes up three
      turns for him to do an attack that does equal damage as if he wasn't
      using the Build command. However it does raise your chance of
      doubling your attack power, but only if you lucky and its pretty rare
      if that ever happens.

      Also don't bother using the Bear command either. Although it says his
      defense is raised it is only raised by one point each time and it takes
      two turns for him to use it and will leave him open to attack.
      Also his Kick command will hit all enemies but his overall attack power
      will be averaged depending on how many enemies there are, so each hit
      will not result in his normal attack power, so unless there are three
      or more opponents just use Yang's fight command instead.

      Yang's KICK command will attack everyone for relatively weak damage,
      it's better you stick to his Fight command, even if it is against a
      group of enemies.

Luckily I wrote something about it, thus removing stupid rumors and junk.

Quote from: Listed in Weapon Section
SHADOW
Attack Power: 10
Hit percentage: 80%
Equipped by: Dark Knight
Special attribute: Casts SILENCE randomly with each successful hit
Aquired by: Initially equipped

Just die please.

I'll just stop and let you read that for yourselves.
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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2008, 04:50:15 AM »
Hate to ask a stupid question, but what makes Paladin Cecil weaker than DK Cecil? It's been a long time since I played FF4.

Deathlike2

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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2008, 06:36:53 AM »
Hate to ask a stupid question, but what makes Paladin Cecil weaker than DK Cecil? It's been a long time since I played FF4.

Initially, Paladin Cecil is weaker that Dark Knight Cecil at the time of the conversion. However, both initial Cecil versions are of the same strength, relatively speaking. Paladin Cecil eventually surpasses Dark Knight Cecil once he reaches the level 24 or so.

I judge this mostly statistically, but this is all proven out when you see the damage dealt...

I'll put up some numbers in a later post, but let's just say Paladin Cecil "appears" to be stronger than Dark Knight Cecil early on only because the enemies are weak against Holy elemental and therefore does approximately 2x or 4x damage than he normally would. Then, you'll feel cheated when he has a tough time killing a Raven outside of Mt. Ordeals.
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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2008, 07:24:34 AM »
Thanks for the info.

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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2008, 08:35:16 AM »
Here's some data that you could look over.. I'm not posting HP ranges at those levels because it would not be a fair comparison (but also because I'm lazy atm).  :tongue:

The data here is assumed that the character is totally unequipped.

DK Cecil @ level 10 (initial)

STR: 13
AGI: 10
VIT: 11
WIS: 6
WILL: 3

Paladin Cecil @ level 1 (initial)

STR: 10
AGI: 13
VIT: 10
WIS: 5
WILL: 8

As you can see, there is not too much of a difference initially.

There's a range between two different levels at which I will be comparing Cecil against, just to make my point.

A realistic early level that Cecil will be at before becoming a Paladin is level 17. A late level would be more along the lines of level 27.. these numbers are used to maximize the attack multiplier (which is very important in the damage calculations).

His stats after equipping the Deathbringer Sword (which is the FF4A name or Death Sword in FF2 SNES)

Deathbringer adds +5 to STR, AGI, VIT, WIS, and -5 to WILL

Data in parenthesis are unequipped stats.

Level 17:
STR: 24 (19)
AGI: 19 (14)
VIT: 20 (15)
WIS: 13 (8)
WILL: 1 (2)

Cecil will have an attack multiplier of 5x with a defense multiplier of 3x (when a shield is equipped).

Level 27:
STR: 32 (27)
AGI: 25 (20)
VIT: 25 (20)
WIS: 16 (11)
WILL: 1 (1)

Note: Stat min cannot go below 0 and there is a wraparound for stats lower than 0 to the value of 1. This is slightly different in FF4A where the wraparound is only "displayed" as 0 for stats lower than 0, but internally the negative stat loss is factored in.

Cecil will now have an attack multiplier of 6x with a defense multiplier of 4x (when a shield is equipped).

For Cecil to even remotely compete with the DK at level 17 in terms of the attack multiplier... he needs to be at level 23 (I like 24 though since he learns Heal/Esuna).

None of Paladin Cecil's equipment at this point boosts his STR in any way, so that's part of the flawed comparison that some idiots make when they say Cecil as a DK is radically stronger than Paladin Cecil (assuming you hacked it so that DK Cecil is always there in the party).

Level 23:
STR: 24 (24)
AGI: 17 (17)
VIT: 23 (23)
WIS: 13 (13)
WILL: 33 (18)

Note: The Will Power boosts are coming from the Paladin equipment you buy at Mysidia, assuming you are using them in conjunction with the Legend Sword.

That will produce an attack multiplier of 5x with a defense multiplier of 3x (assuming you are using a shield).

The thing is that it really does take a while for Cecil to rebuild his STR to "reacclimate himself" to Dark Knight levels. When Dark Knight lovers forget to factor in that Paladin Cecil is far more versatile and stronger once these stats are properly rebuilt...

There's also these reports or "claims" that Dark Knight Cecil is weaker than Paladin Cecil in terms of the monsters. This is true, but only for one reason. All the Paladin equipment you buy has Undead Resistance. Cecil as a DK is not that bad when facing the undead, he's just won't properly compare favorable for those that like the Paladin more (like I do).

These are distinctions worth pointing out, and hopefully that answers your question better.

In sum:
DK Cecil only appears stronger in terms of attack power than Paladin Cecil at the time of conversion.

DK Cecil has a stat boosting weapon (Deathbringer) which completely makes comparisons against Paladin Cecil very unfavorable. DK lovers make these silly comparisons.

Paladin Cecil is on par, if not stronger than DK Cecil, when the Paladin reaches level 23 for enemies that are not weak vs Holy elemental since the Paladin starts with a Holy elemental weapon. Only one enemy on Mt. Ordeals is not weak against Holy and doing damage calculations against Holy elemental enemies totally screws the comparison. Paladin Cecil is pathetic in dealing damage prior to this level, especially when trying to kill Ravens.

Paladin Cecil is defensively stronger than DK Cecil vs Undead only because the equipment has Undead resistance. This issue is negated when he's off Mt. Ordeals.

It will take a long time before DK Cecil will have a Magic Defense Multiplier.. whereas it takes far less time for Paladin Cecil.

Hopefully that answers the question you have with this information.
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Deathlike2

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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2008, 09:31:48 AM »
Here's some numbers to compare against DK Cecil w/o the Deathbringer...

DK Cecil @ level 13:

STR: 16
AGI: 12
VIT: 13
WIS: 7
WILL: 3

Attack multiplier is 3x with a defense multiplier of 2 (with shield).

DK Cecil @ level 19:

STR: 21
AGI: 16
VIT: 16
WIS: 9
WILL: 2

Attack multiplier is 4x with a defense multiplier of 3 (with shield).

Paladin Cecil @ level 15:

STR: 16
AGI: 15
VIT: 16
WIS: 10
WILL: 15

Attack multiplier is 3x with a defense multiplier of 2 (with shield).

Paladin Cecil @ level 20:

STR: 20
AGI: 16
VIT: 20
WIS: 12
WILL: 17

Attack multiplier is 4x with a defense multiplier of 3 (with shield).

See, comparitively speaking, their raw stats are more or less the same.. as long as you aren't comparing against the magic defense multiplier.
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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2008, 11:30:21 AM »
Thanks!

Both times I played FF4(Once via the PS1 release and once with the last j2e patch), he was level 20 before the conversion. I take it that's fairly high leveled?

Deathlike2

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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2008, 11:49:42 AM »
Thanks!

Both times I played FF4(Once via the PS1 release and once with the last j2e patch), he was level 20 before the conversion. I take it that's fairly high leveled?

I can't speak for other players, but I think 20 is fine, especially when Cid starts at level 20. I go slightly overboard with 24, but that's me.
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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2008, 12:39:37 PM »
Thanks.

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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2008, 02:09:52 PM »
I think 20 is pretty average.  I'm usually at 17 when I get to Mysidia, and I level the twins up to 13 or so while I grind to buy the Paladin armor so that Cecil has something to wear on the return trip.  I recall Cecil typically having 5x40 attack on the status screen when I equip Deathbringer/Black sword.

It is rather amusing fighting those large birds on the return trip (they have so many names...).  As a Dark Knight, you can dispatch them in one hit because they aren't resistant to the auto-death of your dark sword, and if that fails, you can still count on 250-300 damage.  As a Paladin even at level 9 or 10, you're doing maybe 150 damage to an enemy with somewhere around 800 hp.  Thankfully, Cecil gains levels very rapidly and becomes a powerhouse again upon receipt of the fire sword in the Tower of Zot.

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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2008, 02:15:40 PM »
I think 20 is pretty average.  I'm usually at 17 when I get to Mysidia, and I level the twins up to 13 or so while I grind to buy the Paladin armor so that Cecil has something to wear on the return trip.  I recall Cecil typically having 5x40 attack on the status screen when I equip Deathbringer/Black sword.

It is rather amusing fighting those large birds on the return trip (they have so many names...).  As a Dark Knight, you can dispatch them in one hit because they aren't resistant to the auto-death of your dark sword, and if that fails, you can still count on 250-300 damage.  As a Paladin even at level 9 or 10, you're doing maybe 150 damage to an enemy with somewhere around 800 hp.  Thankfully, Cecil gains levels very rapidly and becomes a powerhouse again upon receipt of the fire sword in the Tower of Zot.

I think he's a pretty good powerhouse starting at level 24... regardless of the weapon wielded. It makes that early trip to Eblan so much easier.
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Deathlike2

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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2008, 07:25:01 AM »
 :bump:

I was wrong about the wraparound (there isn't), but there the cap of 0 is there anyways...

This wouldn't happen in the SNES version:


That extra point matters in the GBA version:

« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 07:30:50 AM by Deathlike2 »
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Deathlike2

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Re: The State of FF2/4 Walkthroughs/FAQs
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2009, 09:52:40 AM »
Small  :bump:

I remember reading back in the day that the battle with Yang would end quickly when Cecil would attack Yang like 3 times...
Those were the days.

Now, after seeing what that script is... I'm actually very pissed that the information is only half true. Cecil does have to attack Yang, but after the second kick.

This gets me a little more motivated to continue work on that Walkthrough I'm putting off....
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