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Squall

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Back to FFV
« on: March 21, 2016, 06:40:14 AM »
Hey guys,

its been few months since I've done something for FFV (playing or coding). It seems now is a good time to continue. I calculated that doing 2 projects at the same time will pretty much make my main project to crawl, beside the benefits from parsing project are too little, so for now I'm freezing the parser and start working hard on my 'Damage Calculator'. Its still in pre-alfa stage, but if you like I can post the last version. I'm using Tseng's document as a main source of implementation.

P.S. As I'm implementing Rune Weapons formula ($3C) I noticed that all rune weapons use axe params (6.4.8) ... Is that a bug (glitch) or Tseng's wrong description? I kinda always expected that rune sword will act as sword + boost to attack for the expense of some mana, not as axe.
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Jorgur

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2016, 10:08:36 AM »
Long time no see!
It is too bad you are freezing the parser. I'm still hoping it will evolve into an editor at some point. :wink:
Quote from: Squall on March 21, 2016, 06:40:14 AM
P.S. As I'm implementing Rune Weapons formula ($3C) I noticed that all rune weapons use axe params (6.4.8) ... Is that a bug (glitch) or Tseng's wrong description? I kinda always expected that rune sword will act as sword + boost to attack for the expense of some mana, not as axe.
They do use Axe parameters. The Rune Edge is essentially an axe; you can see this in the wide damage range it outputs.
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Squall

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2016, 10:41:49 AM »
Quote from: Jorgur on March 21, 2016, 10:08:36 AM
They do use Axe parameters. The Rune Edge is essentially an axe; you can see this in the wide damage range it outputs.
I can see that ... now :D
TBH I rarely use Rune weapons, because they burn mana. Axes are good for armor piercing (Def/4), but the HUGE gap in the damage makes them not reliable, combined with mana burn = meh (for me at least)
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x0_000

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2016, 02:22:59 PM »
Rune weapons are good once you slap a magic skill on the user because:

1. It increases the mana pool, letting you rune longer
2. Rune damage is increased by your magic stat (on top of the normal modifiers)
3. Rune damage provides a bonus modifier to base damage, as well as making attacks automatically crit, which adds a 2x modifier and ignores defense.

The Rune Axe outclasses the Rune Sword as well since it has a higher base damage (71/81 vs 50/70), uses less MP per swing (5 vs 8) and the job that naturally uses axes gets a 1.5x damage bonus from being Berserked (and if you're in the SNES version has a magic stat so low you can underflow it to get nearly 255 base magic with an item.)
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Squall

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2016, 04:06:29 AM »
Quote from: x0_000 on March 21, 2016, 02:22:59 PM
3. Rune damage provides a bonus modifier to base damage, as well as making attacks automatically crit, which adds a 2x modifier and ignores defense.
Hey x0_000, what is this auto-crit you are talking about? Would you care to clarify, because I dont see it in the algorithm ...

I agree that in general Rune weapons could be useful. As I said, pierce defense is where they really shine (although just few mobs have def that needs to be recon with). I actually did some experiments using my dmg calculator to hit Jackanapes (Def = 50) with Rune Blade (Atk =50) comparing it with Air Knife (Atk = 56) and Greasword (Atk = 57). I was using Bartz level 11 - Freelancer.
As you may guess knife & sword were barely scratching Jackanapes with dmg < 50, while Rune Blade has 78-378 dmg range. With few tweaks to max Str & Mag (Knight with Summon 5) the dmg without rune bonus jumped to 130-630. Obviously with the added rune dmg and LUCK you may even 1 hit kill Jackanapes (HP=666)
 
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Jorgur

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2016, 06:18:33 AM »
x0_000 is not completely right here. They do increase your Magic, but this does not affect the maximum MP. MP is decided by Level and the character's Magic before applying equipment bonuses. (misunderstanding on my part) The attack animation might look like a crit, but it is actually a regular MP-powered attack. The attack multiplier does not get doubled and the target's defense does not get reduced to 0. However, the damage formula is somewhat broken - much like the Chicken Knife, it is based on two stats as he says: Strength and Magic - so the multiplier ends up being nearly double anyway. The enemy defense also gets reduced to 1/4 since Axe parameters are used (this is immensely useful on the super bosses).

Rune weapons are incredibly overlooked. With a strong magic ability equipped, the Rune Axe seems to have the second highest average damage in the game after the Chicken Knife. Rune Edge is also among the most powerful.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 05:56:49 AM by Jorgur »
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Squall

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2016, 08:13:10 AM »
Speaking of Chicken Knife ... M = (Level*Strength)/128 + (Level*Agility)/128 + 2
Isnt it (Level*Agility) restricted to first byte, as knife formula? (if not I understand  why you call it 'broken')

Because we have the same case for Bells and Throw ...

P.S 
Code: [Select]
03: Magic Sword 1
Fire Sword, Ice Sword, Bolt Sword, Venom Sword, Break Sword
1 Spell #
2 [Element]
3 [Status 0] Jorgur, where I can see Spell #?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 02:36:16 AM by Squall »
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Jorgur

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2016, 09:00:22 AM »
Quote from: Squall on March 22, 2016, 08:13:10 AM
Speaking of Chicken Knife ... M = (Level*Strength)/128 + (Level*Agility)/128 + 2
Isnt it (Level*Agility) restricted to first byte, as knife formula? (if not I understand  why you call it 'broken')
No, the Chicken Knife formula uses both bytes. We discussed this earlier in another topic:
http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=978.msg15515#msg15515

Quote from: Squall on March 22, 2016, 08:13:10 AM
P.S 
Code: [Select]
03: Magic Sword 1
Fire Sword, Ice Sword, Bolt Sword, Venom Sword, Break Sword
1 Spell #
2 [Element]
3 [Status 0] Jorgur, where I can see Spell #?
I honestly don't remember. Maybe this?
http://slickproductions.org/slickwiki/index.php/Jorgur:FF5_Common_lists#Sword
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Squall

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2016, 10:45:30 AM »
Thank you Jorgur for the topic link, it was very interesting to read, because it state some of my thoughts during gaming or coding the dmg-calculator.

Personally I think the whole concept is wrong ... knives, bows should be Agi-based dmg. If we say the base formula for stat is Level*Stat/128, then Level*Agi/128 should be the main part of the formula, not correction or 'Random small bonus'. It should look something like:
Level*Agi/128 + 2 + Correction, where correction can depend on Str, but just a fraction of it ... like (Level*Str/128) /4.

From Mathematical stand point all weapons seems overpowered compared to sword, simply because their M = SwordM +xxx
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x0_000

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2016, 02:01:07 PM »
Quote from: Jorgur on March 22, 2016, 06:18:33 AM
The attack animation might look like a crit, but it is actually a regular MP-powered attack. The attack multiplier does not get doubled and the target's defense does not get reduced to 0.
Yeah I was having a fever trip or something on that point.

Funnily enough, on that agility-based damage point I made whips in my hack use Agility*Level/128 as the M value (note the lack of + 2) and Attack + random(0,strength/4) as the attack value (instead of random(0,3)).

The weapons might seem overpowered but keep in mind that swords are one of the few weapon types that benefit from dual wielding and the effect of M on damage is reduced based on the enemy's defense.  Other weapons like axes also have accuracy penalties.

Unrelated edit: wow the octomammoth is huge.
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Squall

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2016, 03:40:18 AM »
Quote from: x0_000 on March 23, 2016, 02:01:07 PM
Funnily enough, on that agility-based damage point I made whips in my hack use Agility*Level/128 as the M value (note the lack of + 2) and Attack + random(0,strength/4) as the attack value (instead of random(0,3)).
:omg: 2 people had the same idea totally independent of each other ... your hack is implementing my personal thoughts of what a good formula should look like. BTW +2 is needed so M<>0 at lower levels and more then 1 so you actually get some boost to dmg. I like your idea to boost Atk with fraction of Str (again you used divide by 4 as I was thinking), not M.
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Jorgur

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2016, 07:35:13 AM »
We had a huge discussion about the Knife formula when we were making the new Fractional M patch. Some people suggested using (Strength*Level)/256 + (Agility*Level)256 + 2, while I recommended (Strength*Level)/128 + 2.
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LightPhoenix

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2016, 03:26:03 PM »
Quote from: Squall on March 21, 2016, 06:40:14 AM
its been few months since I've done something for FFV (playing or coding).

We all go through those phases.  I got a little burned out trying to do bug-fixes on some of the X-Magic/Mimic menu issues and kind of shut down for a few months.  Even working on my current project (documenting the timers) I'm hitting a bit of a wall.

Quote from: Jorgur on March 24, 2016, 07:35:13 AM
We had a huge discussion about the Knife formula when we were making the new Fractional M patch. Some people suggested using (Strength*Level)/256 + (Agility*Level)256 + 2, while I recommended (Strength*Level)/128 + 2.

What did you end up deciding on?  I can see the merits of both.
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assassin

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2016, 07:56:34 PM »
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Jorgur

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Re: Back to FFV
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2016, 07:52:54 AM »
We ended up using my formula, but there is no reason why there shouldn't be multiple choices.
Noisecross, if you are reading this, please consider making an alternative patch with (Strength*Level)/256 + (Agility*Level)256 + 2.
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