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Deathlike2

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FF4 - Bow+Arrow Impact
« on: July 27, 2008, 09:40:59 PM »
I guess this is the long awaited post, but here's a breakdown of Bows+Arrows in general, relative to when you have access to it and the monster distribution... Note that this info may be helpful to gage how powerful the weapon balance, particularly for characters that aren't Rosa (Aim ensures maximum hit rate which means maximum damage effectiveness, but it doesn't magically improve her attack power).

Irow Arrows - First Buyable @ Kaipo
Bow (Short Bow) - First Buyable @ Kaipo

It has virtually no impact other than being the first arrow set Rosa can use. Bows and Arrows in general are useless for Rydia+Edward due to low hit rate are better options. Rydia's Rod or IceRod has a better chance of doing mediocre to decent damage (particularly with the IceRod) vs the enemies. Edward's Harps have a very high hit rate, despite not being back row compatible (except in FF2US).

Holy/White Arrows - First Acquired @ Damacyan/Mt. Hobs, Buyable @ Mysidia, Holy elemental, 4x attack power vs Undead and Spirits
CrossBow - First Acquired @ Damacyan, Buyable @ Mysidia

One of the few times you get it, I actually recommend that combo particularly on Mt. Ordeals, less so on Mt. Hobs, only because you obtain a limited supply of Holy Arrows. Reliablity can be hit or miss, but if you gain a number of levels with the twins, they will eventually gain enough Strength to increase the attack multiplier to be semi-reliable. This combo can easily murder most units, with the exception of the Lilith (and Slap is a nasty attack at this point in the game). These arrows become useless @ the Underground Waterway in Baron.

Fire/Ice/Lightning Arrows - First Buyable @ Toroia, Lightning Arrows give 4x attack power vs Mechs
Greatbow - First Buyable @ Toroia, +3 Str

These elemental arrows are not that great when you first get them.. since the Holy Arrows are actually better for Cecil in the Magnetic Cave. There are a few monsters that are not weak against Holy elemental, making it the viable arrow of choice. The Greatbow starts pouring on some Strength bonuses that may help in getting the additional attack multiplier to make it even more useful than before.

Darkness Arrows - First Buyable @ Dwarf Castle, inflicts Darkness Status

These arrows are nifty if you want the Darkness status to wreak some havoc on certain enemies. Darkness status halves magic evasion (useless for enemies) and evasion (same reason as before), but also halves hit rate which can effectively reduces an enemies's attack by half and halves spell hit rate, which may allow some magic attacks fizzle out more frequently. Unfortunately these arrows are generally overshadowed by the Ice Arrows you would primarily use in this part of the underground, but those don't have enough power to kill the Black Lizards.. unless you overlevel or give Rosa some decent Strength boosting equipment instead of Spirit/Will Power boosting equipment.

Medusa Arrows - Pretty much obtainable by stealing or praying for those drops (first monster you find that will drop these are the Black Lizards), inflicts Stone status

These are the weakest arrows of the bunch in terms of power, but their primary task is to insta-kill monsters via Stone status. Status inflicted effects are primarily based on the target's level vs the attacker's level. The higher the level the attacker is, the more likely the status is inflicted. It's handy to know this when you are hoping for that Stone status to be inflicted... you might be in for a surprise.

Archer/Killer Bow - Obtainable @ Tower of Bab-il Underground, Buyable @ Eblan Caves, +5 Str

This is a nice improvement, and can better guarentee a chance at an increased attack multiplier. Although, that's not too much of an improvement...

Poison Arrows - Acquired by Monsters related to the Hydra and Naga, first seen @ the Underground Waterway, Buyable @ Eblan Caves, inflicts Poison

If you get them in drops early in the game, they are technically more valuable to you then than at the time you can buy them. Poison status is a useless effect when the rate of poison damage is directly corellated with the monster's HP. In other words, you won't benefit from the Poison damage. These arrows by themselves don't really do much when you can buy them. One of the few rare notes is that the Holy arrows are the most effective around Cave Eblana.. with Fire arrows and Ice arrows holding up the rear in terms of overal effectiveness.

Mute Arrows - First Acquired @ Castle of Eblan, Buyable @ Tomra, Inflicts Silence Status, 4x attack power vs Mages

It's kinda annoying that the time you buy them, you won't be able to use them vs the Mad Ogre (I digress). Anyways, these arrows are nifty, but unfortunately you obtain a bow that is an insta-Mage destroyer, minus the Silence status..

Elven Bow - First Acquired @ Sylph's Cave, 4x attack power vs Mages, casts Shell as an item, +5 Wisdom/Intelligence

This is an insta-Mage destroyer weapon. This is probably the first bow that is useful for any character than can take advantage of it, given that it's strangely abnormally high hit rate will allow 99% hit rate @ level 96, which is the maximum. This weapon IMO is the best in FF4, since anyone can use it and Mages are very visable late game and can be taken advantage of. Unfortunately this weapon won't get them killed unless paired with reasonably powerful arrows...

Charm/Fairy Arrows - First Acquired as a semi-rare item drop from Lamia and Queen Lamias, Buyable @ Land of Summoned Monsters, Inflicts Charm Status, 4x attack power vs Giants

These arrows seem useful, but I think they are not as useful as they could be. There are very few Giants (and their formations) late game that you would expose these arrows to, unlike certain areas of the game. Adding Charm status is a nifty touch, but technically too little, too late for their impact. Even the Lightning Arrows, as weak as they are have more impact overall in the Giant of Bab-il than these arrows in general.

Samurai/Yoichi Arrows - First Acquired @ Land of Summoned Monsters, Rarely Dropped by Marlboros @ Sylph's Cave, Buyable @ Blacksmith's

These are the most useless second version of the "generic arrows". Unless you are playing FF4ET, these arrows are useless. They need significantly more power so I'd give a damn.

Samurai/Yoichi Bow - Acquired @ Land of Summoned Monsters, +10 Str

Although this may appear to be the "strongest" bow, I don't believe it's as impactful as people think it is. Hit Rate for those who don't have Aim and Strength bonuses are more beneficial to Rosa.. not Cecil or Rydia (Rydia gets uber Strength bonuses post level 70). Still, the Elven Bow is better, but that's my opinion.

Artemis Arrows - First Acquired By Kary/Moon Goddess drops (though stealing is a better option), 4x attack power vs Dragons

Given that the distribution of dragons are insane in the Lunar Subterraine, you would be foolish to avoid this. Paired with the Elven Bow, you shouldn't be fearing very much. The only issue though is that the enemies that are not dragons won't really be torched... but I guess that's better than nothing.

Artemis Bow - Rare Drop by Kary/Moon Goddess, 4x attack power vs Dragons, but that's only in FF4ET, +10 Str, Agi, Vit, -10 Wis, Will

This is a completely overrated bow if you aren't playing FF4ET. If you pair this Bow with the Heroine/Minerva Robe, you will have a dumb, but strong female archer. The Heroine/Minerva Robe in FF4ET does not have the stat penalty so it becomes relatively favorable to use in that version of the game. I don't see the specialness of this bow otherwise...

Note: I've already written some threads on what I think the bow+arrows should be in powerwise and the optimal Rosa configuration (maybe I'll dig up the links later if anyone cares)... the reality is that there are many parts of the game where the arrows and the bows have little or no impact. Increasing the hit rate early on (maybe lowering the attack power, but that's a balance issue) will help their progression and people liking it better for those not named Rosa.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 10:28:19 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: FF4 - Bow+Arrow Impact
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2008, 07:49:25 AM »
I'm going to disagree with you on the charm/angel arrows, I find them very useful for taking out red giants alone. I generally have Rosa equipped with the Yoichi bow and mute arrows and Rydia equipped with the elven bow and angel arrows for the first part of the subterrain, then switch over to Artemis arrows on Rosa and give Rydia the stardust rod. Similarly, I find the holy arrows very useful on Mt. Hobs, I've never managed to go through all 30 of them before I was done on the mountain, I usually get to Fabul with plenty left.

Do you have any suggestions for effects that would be useful on new arrows? This is something I haven't really touched in my hack yet, except for replacing poison arrows with aevis killers, which completely decimate anything that's flying. I'm currently selling them in Troia and they're the same price and strength as the other elemental arrows.

That goes for bows as well, I already decided the crossbow was found too soon after the starting bow so I replaced it with a mythril bow that is stronger than the great bow but metallic, so Cecil can't take advantage of it in the magnetic cavern. The twins can't equip bows anymore so they don't suffer from not having an upgrade, the healing and mythril staves fill the role of undead remurdering device.

Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Bow+Arrow Impact
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2008, 01:27:44 PM »
I'm going to disagree with you on the charm/angel arrows, I find them very useful for taking out red giants alone. I generally have Rosa equipped with the Yoichi bow and mute arrows and Rydia equipped with the elven bow and angel arrows for the first part of the subterrain, then switch over to Artemis arrows on Rosa and give Rydia the stardust rod. Similarly, I find the holy arrows very useful on Mt. Hobs, I've never managed to go through all 30 of them before I was done on the mountain, I usually get to Fabul with plenty left.

I kinda find it gimmicky, even if it is effective on one particular monster. I prefer to conserve the Holy arrows, since I tend to level up on Mt. Hobs for Rosa (to learn Cure2/Cura).

Quote
Do you have any suggestions for effects that would be useful on new arrows? This is something I haven't really touched in my hack yet, except for replacing poison arrows with aevis killers, which completely decimate anything that's flying. I'm currently selling them in Troia and they're the same price and strength as the other elemental arrows.

Well, the Darkness arrows are underrated, though monster presence somewhat limits their usefulness (plus this status is useless vs most, if not all undead monsters)...

Maybe a death arrow "Hades Arrow", as a complement to the Medusa Arrows. Revamping the Holy, Fire, Ice arrows... Holy being effective vs Spirits, Fire being effective vs Undead, Ice being effective vs Reptiles... add a Drain Arrow perhaps? Allow it to be effective vs Flan/Pudding... Have a Sleeping Arrow? There are a few untapped statuses that could work out... Perhaps the Poison Arrow gets one extra added status of Paralysis could revitalize it. Curse status is underused.. it could be added to the Darkness Arrows (and it may need a new name to boot) as the ultimate monster weakener...

Quote
That goes for bows as well, I already decided the crossbow was found too soon after the starting bow so I replaced it with a mythril bow that is stronger than the great bow but metallic, so Cecil can't take advantage of it in the magnetic cavern. The twins can't equip bows anymore so they don't suffer from not having an upgrade, the healing and mythril staves fill the role of undead remurdering device.

I usually don't think to add stuff to bows, but maybe there should be a Bow that inflicts Piggy status (would be useful vs the BlackCat monsters since they auto-counter with Bluster)... perhaps revise the Artemis Bow to be a Dragon killer like FF4ET... create a Bow that is effective against both Giants and Mechs (basically something for the Giant of Bab-il to replace the slightly less effective Lightning Arrows at this point in the game).

I think that about covers it though.
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Phoenix

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Re: FF4 - Bow+Arrow Impact
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2008, 05:05:27 PM »
Quote
Holy being effective vs Spirits, Fire being effective vs Undead, Ice being effective vs Reptiles...

Hey, you picked out the same weaknesses I chose for my hack.  :scared:

Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Bow+Arrow Impact
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2008, 05:24:26 PM »
Here's some reference posts:

Rosa's Best Equipment Options Analyzed: http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=175.0
My Equipment Rebalancing Wishlist: http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=445.0

Part of my ideas originally involved rebalancing arrows, so they are useful all game... the other issue is that I didn't quite factor in the back row bit (or the bug that can be abused)... but they normally would be solid options... I'd have to rethink it a tad anyways.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 05:32:07 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: FF4 - Bow+Arrow Impact
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2008, 06:12:22 PM »
I kinda find it gimmicky, even if it is effective on one particular monster. I prefer to conserve the Holy arrows, since I tend to level up on Mt. Hobs for Rosa (to learn Cure2/Cura).

Yeah, they should really give the angel arrows to you at Eblan, so you can take advantage of them for the mad ogres. I usually gain a few levels at Mt. Hobs too, you can always just use the holy arrows for the bombs, undead, and spirits and swap the iron on for anything that's flying.

Well, the Darkness arrows are underrated, though monster presence somewhat limits their usefulness (plus this status is useless vs most, if not all undead monsters)...

Maybe a death arrow "Hades Arrow", as a complement to the Medusa Arrows. Revamping the Holy, Fire, Ice arrows... Holy being effective vs Spirits, Fire being effective vs Undead, Ice being effective vs Reptiles... add a Drain Arrow perhaps? Allow it to be effective vs Flan/Pudding... Have a Sleeping Arrow? There are a few untapped statuses that could work out... Perhaps the Poison Arrow gets one extra added status of Paralysis could revitalize it. Curse status is underused.. it could be added to the Darkness Arrows (and it may need a new name to boot) as the ultimate monster weakener...

The dark arrows are dark-elemental now, in addition to causing darkness status. Dark weaponry is set to do extra damage against humanoids (Yeah, I played around with the races a bit) so they should be pretty useful around the time you get them.

Instant death is something I already considered, but on a rare bow instead of an arrow. Basically it would be able to turn any arrow, including useless iron, into an instant death weapon. Wasn't sure if I actually wanted to do it or not though.

Sleep might be a good one, I made the sleep blade into an Edge-exclusive weapon so no one else has a weapon that can inflict that. I have a limited number of arrows (And even if I looked into how to expand that, I'm out of weaponry entirely now) so I think the poison arrows will be staying cut, unless I give the status to something else. Paralysis would be good but Yang/Edge's Tigerfangs and every whip already inflicts that, so there's plenty of ways to apply that status. Curse is a really good one though, no weapons have that right now, the ancient sword was dropped a long time ago, and it could be really useful later in the game. I just made sleep and ancient arrows, I'll see how they actually play when this is testable.

I usually don't think to add stuff to bows, but maybe there should be a Bow that inflicts Piggy status (would be useful vs the BlackCat monsters since they auto-counter with Bluster)... perhaps revise the Artemis Bow to be a Dragon killer like FF4ET... create a Bow that is effective against both Giants and Mechs (basically something for the Giant of Bab-il to replace the slightly less effective Lightning Arrows at this point in the game).

I think that about covers it though.

I stole the piggy's stick from FF4ET and made it a rare drop, everyone except Yang can equip it despite it being a sword, so that plays the same role as the piggy bow would. The Artemis bow has anti-dragon properties now but if I add the one I mentioned above it will be the Artemis bow that gets cut - I favor replacing the rare items with new rare items. The anti-mech/giant idea is a good one but I added a special weapon for Rosa right before the giant that already serves that purpose and Rydia's blitz whip got an upgrade to do extra damage against mechs too.

I hope I haven't said too much about my hack, I don't mind people knowing this stuff but I think it'll be more fun if everyone goes in blind. Then again this is nothing more than what will be included in the instruction manual-type readme I have planned anyway.

Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Bow+Arrow Impact
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2008, 08:46:00 PM »
I kinda find it gimmicky, even if it is effective on one particular monster. I prefer to conserve the Holy arrows, since I tend to level up on Mt. Hobs for Rosa (to learn Cure2/Cura).

Yeah, they should really give the angel arrows to you at Eblan, so you can take advantage of them for the mad ogres. I usually gain a few levels at Mt. Hobs too, you can always just use the holy arrows for the bombs, undead, and spirits and swap the iron on for anything that's flying.

Well, Mute Arrows would just be as effective.. though the Silence Staff has a good chance of being available/dropped.... which is just as effective (well, almost anyways).

Quote
Well, the Darkness arrows are underrated, though monster presence somewhat limits their usefulness (plus this status is useless vs most, if not all undead monsters)...

Maybe a death arrow "Hades Arrow", as a complement to the Medusa Arrows. Revamping the Holy, Fire, Ice arrows... Holy being effective vs Spirits, Fire being effective vs Undead, Ice being effective vs Reptiles... add a Drain Arrow perhaps? Allow it to be effective vs Flan/Pudding... Have a Sleeping Arrow? There are a few untapped statuses that could work out... Perhaps the Poison Arrow gets one extra added status of Paralysis could revitalize it. Curse status is underused.. it could be added to the Darkness Arrows (and it may need a new name to boot) as the ultimate monster weakener...

The dark arrows are dark-elemental now, in addition to causing darkness status. Dark weaponry is set to do extra damage against humanoids (Yeah, I played around with the races a bit) so they should be pretty useful around the time you get them.

Instant death is something I already considered, but on a rare bow instead of an arrow. Basically it would be able to turn any arrow, including useless iron, into an instant death weapon. Wasn't sure if I actually wanted to do it or not though.

Personally, those weapons need to be weak to compensate for the semi-overpowered... which was planned correctly in the original game. I'm not entirely a fan of stuff being a "drop only" or steal option, particularly arrows since I have a preference buying en masse... I'd prefer it in arrow form, but a limited rare drop can't be all that bad.

Quote
I usually don't think to add stuff to bows, but maybe there should be a Bow that inflicts Piggy status (would be useful vs the BlackCat monsters since they auto-counter with Bluster)... perhaps revise the Artemis Bow to be a Dragon killer like FF4ET... create a Bow that is effective against both Giants and Mechs (basically something for the Giant of Bab-il to replace the slightly less effective Lightning Arrows at this point in the game).

I think that about covers it though.

I stole the piggy's stick from FF4ET and made it a rare drop, everyone except Yang can equip it despite it being a sword, so that plays the same role as the piggy bow would. The Artemis bow has anti-dragon properties now but if I add the one I mentioned above it will be the Artemis bow that gets cut - I favor replacing the rare items with new rare items. The anti-mech/giant idea is a good one but I added a special weapon for Rosa right before the giant that already serves that purpose and Rydia's blitz whip got an upgrade to do extra damage against mechs too.

I hope I haven't said too much about my hack, I don't mind people knowing this stuff but I think it'll be more fun if everyone goes in blind. Then again this is nothing more than what will be included in the instruction manual-type readme I have planned anyway.

The Blitz Whip was underpowered (like every other whip she had)... the Mech property would've been nice it that were added... would've made her bearable in the Giant. Then again, all her whips are kinda underpowered... at one point, I felt that Bows+Arrows for her were a better idea, but that's only true once she gets the Elven Bow...
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 08:59:01 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: FF4 - Bow+Arrow Impact
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2008, 06:28:19 AM »
Well, Mute Arrows would just be as effective.. though the Silence Staff has a good chance of being available/dropped.... which is just as effective (well, almost anyways).

Ah, yeah, I forgot about mad ogres being mages as well. The arrows would still be useful for golems, but they already have an easily exploitable ice weakness.

Personally, those weapons need to be weak to compensate for the semi-overpowered... which was planned correctly in the original game. I'm not entirely a fan of stuff being a "drop only" or steal option, particularly arrows since I have a preference buying en masse... I'd prefer it in arrow form, but a limited rare drop can't be all that bad.

The dark arrows are the same strength as the holy arrows and are still bought in the dwarf castle, if they prove to be too strong I can also weaken them a bit.

I hate ridiculously rare drops as much as the next guy, so most of my monsters that drop anything special drop their items far more often than those that don't (25% instead of 5%). There are exceptions for the stuff that has the potential to massively unbalance the game at a given point (I'm not opposed to doing this mind you, it can be fun at times such as the Hades sword in JCE's hack, but it's not something I want to happen every playthrough), but most of that is also available from a later monster at a higher drop rate.

The Blitz Whip was underpowered (like every other whip she had)... the Mech property would've been nice it that were added... would've made her bearable in the Giant. Then again, all her whips are kinda underpowered... at one point, I felt that Bows+Arrows for her were a better idea, but that's only true once she gets the Elven Bow...

I usually give her a dancing dagger until Tomra, where I buy the chain whip, that one's pretty useful until bahamut's cave and the subterrain.

Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Bow+Arrow Impact
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2008, 12:00:27 PM »
The Blitz Whip was underpowered (like every other whip she had)... the Mech property would've been nice it that were added... would've made her bearable in the Giant. Then again, all her whips are kinda underpowered... at one point, I felt that Bows+Arrows for her were a better idea, but that's only true once she gets the Elven Bow...

I usually give her a dancing dagger until Tomra, where I buy the chain whip, that one's pretty useful until bahamut's cave and the subterrain.

The Dancing Dagger is probably the coolest weapon spell.. too bad its impact is lessened over time. It's hard to quantify the actual difference between the Chain Whip and Dancing Dagger at that point in the game. No Blitz Whip though in between though.. not that its impact was improved.. plus the elemental property has literally no impact at that point in the game.. I think there were 0 monsters by that point in the game that are weak vs lightning, but there is only 1 monster that's resistant (Manticore from the Sealed Cave) comes to mind... that's "no impact" for you.

Anyone interested in an overall equipment analysis for the game? I'm up for writing that out.
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Re: FF4 - Bow+Arrow Impact
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2008, 12:14:35 PM »
i'd be interested in reading it. 
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Re: FF4 - Bow+Arrow Impact
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2008, 12:43:31 PM »
The bats in the sealed cave absorb lighting, I think Miss Vamp does too.

i'd be interested in reading it. 

Yeah, me too.

Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Bow+Arrow Impact
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2008, 12:51:44 PM »
The bats in the sealed cave absorb lighting, I think Miss Vamp does too.

Those bats die quickly though. Miss Vamp isn't, but the rare Yellow Dragon is. Still few and far between for impact.

Quote
i'd be interested in reading it. 

Yeah, me too.

I guess I'll post it, relative to the original game in which you obtain the equipment.
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