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Print Page - FF4 Algo - Input Requested
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Library of the Ancients => Final Fantasy IV Research & Development => Topic started by: Deathlike2 on September 24, 2008, 03:33:28 PM
Title: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on September 24, 2008, 03:33:28 PM
I have all the data all written out on the boards, but I doubt it is ideally presented as it is currently written.
So, in a call to "pleading ignorance" on how I should go about writing the physical and magical algos, how should they be presented?
I've seen the FF3/6, and FF5 ones.. and they look ok.. but have differences.
FF3/6's Algo has it laid out easily, but it doesn't fit well into how the algo is processed in FF4... although the individual command aspects are laid out well.
FF5 Algo is pretty good, but wordy.. and not that it's difficult, but it has too many exceptions to the rule and whatnot.
I'm just looking at a sane way of going about this... suggestions, anyone?
:edit: Link to Gamefaqs copy - http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588330/54945
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on September 25, 2008, 09:30:01 AM
Screw it, this "view topic" and "no post" is not making me happy.
There's a basic formula.. my current layout is close to what I want, but I'll have to separate the multipliers better since the order of how they are executed is confusing.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on September 25, 2008, 09:53:16 AM
Keep in mind a lot of the views come from various guests, spiders, and bots. I wanted to check out the other guides before I gave my answer, I haven't read them in a long time, but I haven't had a chance yet, I've been really busy the past two days.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on September 25, 2008, 02:02:47 PM
There's no rush.. I'm more or less thinking out loud for the most part...
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on September 25, 2008, 10:31:31 PM
Here's the attack algo in a nutshell. Hopefully it is clear and concise.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: DarknessSavior on September 26, 2008, 09:34:14 AM
Very well written. My only thought when reading these algorithms is "Who the hell would want to know this?", but that's my feeling on just about any RPG algorithm explanation.
Unless they're planning on hacking it, I guess. :laugh:
~DS
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on September 26, 2008, 09:39:33 AM
Very well written. My only thought when reading these algorithms is "Who the hell would want to know this?", but that's my feeling on just about any RPG algorithm explanation.
Unless they're planning on hacking it, I guess. :laugh:
~DS
It's meant to be for dummies, but eventually posting it on Gamefaqs will prove to be futile/fatal. :tongue:
The hacking component is far more valuable to me anyways. I want 'em good hacks! :lungs: :banonsmash:
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on September 26, 2008, 09:43:09 AM
I agree with DS, it's a good format and it's very clear. I still didn't read the FF5 and FF6 docs (Should be less hectic around here after today though, so hopefully I'll get around to it soon) but I like this as it is now.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on September 26, 2008, 10:11:57 AM
If any of this is useful for FF4DS (I somewhat doubt everything will be the same), you can write up something based on this guide as long as proper credit is given.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on September 26, 2008, 02:04:31 PM
Ok, I've finally integrated the magic damage algo...
Comments, critque, crap, etc.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on September 26, 2008, 02:58:13 PM
I forgot about the split damage modifier... let's try this again.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on September 29, 2008, 04:33:17 PM
Ok, there are some slight improvements, but now there is the HP algo in its final form (at least noone has yet confirmed everything I wrote, but I'm pretty sure it is dead solid information).
:edit:
Updated file with the new racial protection modifier for armor.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on September 30, 2008, 11:40:46 PM
Here's an updated guide, with commands pretty much explained in detail for the most part (except for Steal, because it's still a mystery).
There are a few sections I don't like, probably the Hide and Cover commands need the most work.
In any case, please remember to give feedback.
Note: The command section will include a section on statuses that prevent the command from being selected. This is different from a command that fails to execute due to statuses, which will be listed as part of the information for individual command.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on October 05, 2008, 01:14:54 AM
Seriously, this no feedback thing is killing me here.
I've added the section on spells disabled by command.
Does anyone have suggestions for what should be listed in the special spell section other that 99% of the monster spells?
Can anyone hear me???????? /me screams into this forum abyss.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: bond697 on October 09, 2008, 04:35:20 PM
for the bare fists attack power, couldn't(shouldn't?) it be (str + lv)/4 instead of str/4 + lv/4? that makes more sense than dividing 2 things by 4, and it's cleaner.
i just started reading this, and thought i'd make a suggestion.
:edit: same for here:
All Weapons That Don't Involve A Bow:
Base Attack Power = Weapon's Attack Power + Str/4 + Level/4 -- wap + (str + lv)/4
in fact, i see it used a few more times.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on October 09, 2008, 04:42:08 PM
for the bare fists attack power, couldn't(shouldn't?) it be (str + lv)/4 instead of str/4 + lv/4? that makes more sense than dividing 2 things by 4, and it's cleaner.
i just started reading this, and thought i'd make a suggestion.
:edit: same for here:
All Weapons That Don't Involve A Bow:
Base Attack Power = Weapon's Attack Power + Str/4 + Level/4 -- wap + (str + lv)/4
in fact, i see it used a few more times.
That's not how it works. It's not a sum of both values then divided by 4. It's a sum of each value divided by 4. You also have to factor in truncation, which has a greater significance here. Truncation prevents the standard math principles, particularly the associative property in addition/multiplication.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: bond697 on October 09, 2008, 04:53:52 PM
ah, ok, that works. i was reading through, and my math sense started tingling. :)
just out of curiosity, where does the game truncate the decimal? does it knock off the entire decimal, or does it stop at some point a few numbers in? or is that something that we'll just never know?
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on October 09, 2008, 05:15:10 PM
ah, ok, that works. i was reading through, and my math sense started tingling. :)
just out of curiosity, where does the game truncate the decimal? does it knock off the entire decimal, or does it stop at some point a few numbers in? or is that something that we'll just never know?
Think of it in terms of integers as I don't think the SNES had an FPU. When you do division with integers, you end up storing the remainder as part of the operation. That usually is the case AFAIK.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: bond697 on October 09, 2008, 05:25:32 PM
Think of it in terms of integers as I don't think the SNES had an FPU. When you do division with integers, you end up storing the remainder as part of the operation. That usually is the case AFAIK.
ah, ok. that makes sense. i think i was over-estimating the capabilities of the snes.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on October 15, 2008, 04:26:56 AM
Here's an update.. I think I need to revise the new section (remove a few entries probably)...
Feedback please.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on October 22, 2008, 03:47:07 PM
I will have to rewrite the Aim command section and a few other sections with some minor updates.
Aim can be affected by the back row penalty (it's only visible because of a bug in FF4A), so I will have to use Phoenix's useful number and rewrite the section.
Also, Blind status doesn't affect the hit rate of monster spells..
The solo multiplier also changes the magic defense multiplier in the algo.. not just the spell multiplier.
Then there's the status inflicts via Jump+Power/Deadly/Build Up.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on November 22, 2008, 11:29:19 PM
Ok, somehow this gets 13 downloads, but no comments? :wtf: :lame:
Finally I've stopped putting off writing the status info.. I just need to write up the timer info (from http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=495.0) to finish this off (and probably immediately do the equipment stats afterwards since all the stat infos out there suck ass).
There are some updates, including the newly found Twin command info, Double Meteor (FF4A specific), Monster Hit Rate, Critical Hit bonuses for the Bow+Arrow combo... and a few other things that seem to make more sense.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on November 24, 2008, 12:08:26 AM
Ok.. this is pretty much "done for now" and will probably be submitted later today.
Feedback is really in demand now, so PLEASE PLEASE comment on it.
As an aside, with some of the recent research I know now, I will probably update the spell guide at about the same time.
Todo after posting: 1) Do item section 2) Do bugs section 3) Fill in tips section as I recall cool stuff
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: bond697 on November 24, 2008, 12:34:01 AM
in the critical hits section:
"Some weapons prevent critical hits from occuring[sic] at all,"
i don't know if you're looking for spelling corrections, but it's spelled occurring.
also, if it's not a lot of weapons, maybe a list of which ones prevent criticals? or maybe make a list at the bottom and have some kind of footnote to denote that?
well, if you're not looking to fix typos, i'll get rid of this also, but:
Elemental Attack Power Modifiers --------------------------------
Anyways, if an elemental matches a weakness or resistance, it is processed in a particular order, depending on which port of the game you are playing.
-----------------------
The immune property is hidden, but is normally visible to use in the form of the Zombie series of monsters. They have Darkness resistance and the Immune property. This is the ultimate reason why Cecil does 1 damage. The formula slightly changes with a critical hit is dealt.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on November 24, 2008, 07:58:07 AM
"Some weapons prevent critical hits from occuring[sic] at all,"
i don't know if you're looking for spelling corrections, but it's spelled occurring.
Yes, I'm looking for spelling corrections, but that's not primarily the goal. The goal is to be clear and consise and hope to remove most, if not all ambiguity (pretty much anything that sounds like it doesn't make any sense)
Quote
also, if it's not a lot of weapons, maybe a list of which ones prevent criticals? or maybe make a list at the bottom and have some kind of footnote to denote that?
That will be part of the equipment section.
Quote
well, if you're not looking to fix typos, i'll get rid of this also, but:
Elemental Attack Power Modifiers --------------------------------
Anyways, if an elemental matches a weakness or resistance, it is processed in a particular order, depending on which port of the game you are playing.
-----------------------
The immune property is hidden, but is normally visible to use in the form of the Zombie series of monsters. They have Darkness resistance and the Immune property. This is the ultimate reason why Cecil does 1 damage. The formula slightly changes with a critical hit is dealt.
I didn't fare well in English classes... :tongue:
It's hard to make sure a friggen 70kb doc sound logical.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on November 24, 2008, 04:02:57 PM
Arg, I fell asleep and so I'll put off submitting the stuff til tomorrow. Gamefaqs tends to updates its stuff in sometime in the afternoon (at least according to my time zone) so I will probably submit it at 12PM EST to reduce the wait time (I really honestly doubt they will reject my document, god forbid it's uber fucking huge relative to my previous docs).
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on November 26, 2008, 02:02:01 AM
Ok, so I've put this off til the day before Thanksgiving... so :bah:
I've gotten it spell checked and read over once.. for now it should be pretty sane.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on November 26, 2008, 02:09:12 AM
Hah, I was just reading over the version you posted a few days ago, you posted this right after I got the information I wanted. :tongue:
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on November 26, 2008, 02:12:35 AM
Well, there's a pretty damn good chance a new revision will be posted after Thanksgiving due to human error (but I'd probably add some duh tips (which are more fun to write than the boatload of bugs I have to write up.. and that list is kinda long believe it or not).
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on November 26, 2008, 02:27:33 AM
I've never really liked the Poison Claw.. I needed the Agility more than the Strength...
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on November 26, 2008, 08:27:27 PM
Ok, this is a copy that I have after the one I've already sent to Gamefaqs (it's not up yet, but when it does, I'll link it when it is available).
There's a few updates since my last copy, mostly regarding Haste/Slow/Stop.. I tweaked my comments regarding Hide and Jump because I remember testing it and forgetting the results (which I posted into the particular command threads afterwards).
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 01, 2008, 04:35:09 PM
It has now been posted - http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588330/54945
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 08, 2008, 04:05:30 PM
Noone has any comments? Argh. With my Ogre Battle guide being updated, I will get started on filling in what I said I would add to it...
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 11, 2008, 07:15:03 PM
Ok, it's been posted.. although with one mistake I know of.. but now I'll find in some of the equipment section, hints, and maybe a few bugs.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 12, 2008, 06:14:00 PM
Ok, maybe I'm going about reading the whole damn guide the wrong way... I might as well ask relevent questions so I'll get better responses..
1) Are my basic explainations for how things work clear? Are the examples good enough to grasp to figure out how things work?
2) If you're read the spell guide, I have a Notes section on stuff.. do you find that interesting/useful or is it just white noise/useless?
3) Are there things I can do to improve upon what's already posted? If so, please explain in detail. These can be additions, how it is currently structured, placement of certain details...
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 12, 2008, 08:52:28 PM
3) Are there things I can do to improve upon what's already posted? If so, please explain in detail. These can be additions, how it is currently structured, placement of certain details...
I don't really have any ideas.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 17, 2008, 05:22:53 PM
Ok, PLEASE PLEASE let me know if the bug descriptions are unclear.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 17, 2008, 06:42:32 PM
Added a few missing things and fixed a number of stuff I had mentioned earlier (critical hits and the probability of a status hit).
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 17, 2008, 06:49:04 PM
Quote
Back Row Bit bugs....
Certain bits aren't removed when the weapon is removed/changed: (affects all SNES versions)
Believe it or not, the weapon data has a number of extra (and still yet to be determined bits) that the game uses. The problem is that the majority of these extra bits (excluding the Metallic bit) are not removed. One of these bits happen to be the back row bit (which is beneficial to you) and the "no critical bit" (which is not beneficial to you) are not removed. Note that the back row bit is only applied to Edge if the weapon with the back row bit (Boomerang for example) is equipped on his right hand. The no critical bit unfortunately is applied to various weapons, including the Dwarf Axe, Silence/Rune Staff, and every whip Rydia can equip.
This is not really fixed in FF4A... the "no critical bit" was removed, but there is a different issue with the back row bit...
The use of "back row bit" here is just confusing. I know what you mean, but "long range bit" might make more sense to someone that doesn't. If you don't want to use that, there should be an indication that the bit makes a weapon do full damage from the back row.
Quote
Barbariccia/Valvalis have her Lightning weakness removed:
This one's just worded oddly. The bug is that the lightning weakness from Cagnazzo isn't removed, this title makes it sound like the weakness is removed from her when it shouldn't be.
Quote
Charm doesn't redirect QUake's targeting:
Extra capital letter.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 17, 2008, 07:58:47 PM
Ok, there's a few changes in response to the reply. I've also added a bit more info (the tips section is not looking too bad IMO).
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 19, 2008, 12:53:06 PM
Someone apparently goofed when porting FF4 to FF4A... the Holy Lance's price/value in FF4A is the sell price of the weapon.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 19, 2008, 07:16:17 PM
The doc's grown too much, so now it has to be zipped up..
The weapon section is done.. but not the armor or any of the FF4A specific stuff... yet
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 19, 2008, 09:05:17 PM
I would suggest putting some sort of divider between the weapon name and its information. I actually started an item guide a while back, but never really got anywhere with it. Here are two weapon examples from what I did finish, though:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ $03: Thunder Claw ******************************* Attack:0 Accuracy:80% ------------------------------- Casts:N/A Spell Power:N/A ------------------------------- Unknown 1:No Is Arrow:No Unknown 2:No Two-Handed:No ------------------------------- No Criticals:No Unknown 1:No Cid Powerup:No Unknown 2:No Unknown 3:No Long-Range:No Throwable:No Metallic:No ------------------------------- Elements: Thunder ------------------------------- Statuses: N/A ------------------------------- Type Boost: Mech ------------------------------- Ability Boosts: Strength:0 Agility:0 Stamina:0 Spirit:0 Intellect:0 ------------------------------- Equipped By: Yang Edge ------------------------------- Buy:550 Gil Sell:275 Gil ------------------------------- Animation: Yellow/Blue Claw ------------------------------- Notes: 0 Attack may make this weapon sound weak, but Yang has a special damage formula that makes him into a killing machine regardless of his equipment's attack power. Edge does not have this damage formula, and as a result should only equip claws to hit elemental or type weaknesses.
This weapon does quadruple damage against mech enemies, and should be used over any other weapon while fighting them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ $07: Rod ******************************* Attack:3 Accuracy:40% ------------------------------- Casts:Magic Arrow Spell Power: ------------------------------- Unknown 1:No Is Arrow:No Unknown 2:No Two-Handed:No ------------------------------- No Criticals:No Unknown 1:No Cid Powerup:No Unknown 2:No Unknown 3:No Long-Range:No Throwable:No Metallic:No ------------------------------- Elements: N/A ------------------------------- Statuses: N/A ------------------------------- Type Boost: N/A ------------------------------- Ability Boosts: Strength:0 Agility:0 Stamina:0 Spirit:0 Intellect:0 ------------------------------- Equipped By: Rydia (Child) Tellah Palom Rydia (Adult) FuSoYa ------------------------------- Buy:100 Gil Sell:50 Gil ------------------------------- Animation: Brown/Gray Rod ------------------------------- Notes: You should never attack with a rod, their attack and accuracy is simply too low to make it worthwhile. Instead, use them through the item menu to take advantage of whatever spell they cast.
The rod casts magic arrow, a single-target skill that will never miss and does reasonable damage at the point you'll be using this weapon. There's a lot more whitespace, but I also find it much more readable. Since half the page is blank with this format, I planned on having the Easy Type name/stat changes on the right side of the FF4 equipment. I wasn't sure what I was going to do with the minor changes between FF4 and FF2us, though.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 19, 2008, 09:13:58 PM
I'll see what I can do.
All these extra bits are not worth posting until there's something to associate those bits with...
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 19, 2008, 09:14:28 PM
I suppose, but I included them for completeness since they are set on some weapons. I planned on having an area the would explain what each field meant, and pointed out that the unknowns don't appear to have any effect.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 20, 2008, 12:03:58 AM
All the Shields and Hats are done... at least up to this point anyways.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 20, 2008, 11:39:01 PM
Ok, I've covered all the weapon+armor, but not the other items and FF4 specific stuff...
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 27, 2008, 12:18:51 AM
Laziness aside, the spell-casting items in FF4 are now included.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 27, 2008, 11:48:25 PM
The item list in FF4 is complete with spoilers for idiots.
Unless there is new information, Dark Matter and the other two unused stuff (those are designated Key Items as far as the treasure screen reports them to be) don't have any meaningful descriptions unless someone knows more about them..
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 31, 2008, 01:57:17 AM
Ok... the list is complete... :bah:
The only major thing needed to be done is probably to proofread and consider adding one more section on randomly useful/cool info.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on January 05, 2009, 03:22:04 PM
Ok, the stuff has been updated to Gamefaqs, although, I'm working on a revision to address spelling and grammar mistakes... and add a few bugs onto the list..
1) The Vamplady positioning/not hanging bug.
2) Master Flan can't be targeted...
3) Mention other FF4A differences.. such as they added like only a small number of new monster graphics (Yang's Trial uses it)... the Metamorpha monster actually does change the monster into 4 random monsters (Behemoth, Blue Dragon, White Dragon, Ahriman).. which was not originally possible in FF4. I don't think there are that many actual additions though.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on January 05, 2009, 03:34:26 PM
I'm pretty sure this was intentional, and making it targetable was actually breaking that battle. Where I'm certain it was unintentional is another monster that uses a similar (I'm guessing the same) formation, the bog witch and tiny toads. This was a problem inherited from the WSC version, it's possible whoever designed the master flan (who's name should really have been "flan master"...) battle thought that was how the formation was intended to work.
the Metamorpha monster actually does change the monster into 4 random monsters (Behemoth, Blue Dragon, White Dragon, Ahriman).. which was not originally possible in FF4. I don't think there are that many actual additions though.
Are you sure, or is it just four different battle formations? That would have been possible in the original game.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on January 05, 2009, 03:56:27 PM
I'm pretty sure this was intentional, and making it targetable was actually breaking that battle. Where I'm certain it was unintentional is another monster that uses a similar (I'm guessing the same) formation, the bog witch and tiny toads. This was a problem inherited from the WSC version, it's possible whoever designed the master flan (who's name should really have been "flan master"...) battle thought that was how the formation was intended to work.
It was changed or "fixed" in the Euro (and probably Jap 1.1) version... not that the battle was ever difficult (Palom learns Quake at level 23, which means it's a can't miss proposition anyways).
the Metamorpha monster actually does change the monster into 4 random monsters (Behemoth, Blue Dragon, White Dragon, Ahriman).. which was not originally possible in FF4. I don't think there are that many actual additions though.
Are you sure, or is it just four different battle formations? That would have been possible in the original game.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. At some point, the monster changes form (although, I forget how that was triggered) and 4 possible monsters appear. I don't see how you could change to any 4 random monsters in this game. The closest one does something like that is the Trapdoor monster or the Elementals, but that's designed that way. You can only fit 3 different types of monsters in any battle to begin with... and I don't believe any of the battle codes allow for changing the monster's HP.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on January 05, 2009, 04:03:40 PM
What I'm wondering, does it actually randomly change, or are there just four different formations, like there are two different trap door formations? It would be simple to make this monster using the exact same method the trap door uses if there are four different formations. If there is only one formation and it randomly turns into one of the four monsters then that is new behavior, but I suspect it's the former.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on January 05, 2009, 04:07:49 PM
What I'm wondering, does it actually randomly change, or are there just four different formations, like there are two different trap door formations?
There's only one formation (it's nice how there are cheat codes to force any battle formation). I originally thought the way you did, but after seeing only one formation and testing the randomness of it, it's pretty random.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on January 05, 2009, 04:09:53 PM
Ah, okay then. I'm surprised they actually bothered to do it that way, I'm pretty sure FF5's wasn't random (I seem to remember it always changing into the same monster in the same battle, and I know it had its own versions of the monsters it turned into).
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on January 05, 2009, 04:11:35 PM
Ah, okay then. I'm surprised they actually bothered to do it that way, I'm pretty sure FF5's wasn't random (I seem to remember it always changing into the same monster in the same battle, and I know it had its own versions of the monsters it turned into).
FF5 does multiple copies of the same monster, but having different fixed battle scripts.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: odditude on January 06, 2009, 10:59:35 AM
minor legibility suggestion: indent all formulae slightly (3 spaces?) to offset them from the descriptive text.
i'm going to do an anal proofreading readthrough during my down time here today.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on January 06, 2009, 02:59:06 PM
minor legibility suggestion: indent all formulae slightly (3 spaces?) to offset them from the descriptive text.
I don't like it.. I need the space, but a more creative answer would be fine if I think it through some more.
Quote
i'm going to do an anal proofreading readthrough during my down time here today.
Hopefully, the update goes online soon (1.51)... I'll upload a copy here anyways (I've changed the posting legal mumbo jumbo because it didn't have to be there).
:edit: I have no plans to update a version until Friday at the earliest.. if there isn't anything major needing changes.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: odditude on January 06, 2009, 05:36:48 PM
Consistency question - do you have any issue with me renaming / reordering things for consistency?
For example, when referring to bows and arrows, in one place you refer to the setup as "arrow in primary hand" whereas later it's "bow in recessive hand."
Also, the order in which you present the formulae for standard/unarmed/edge/yang/bow&arrow/monsters differs by section.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on January 06, 2009, 06:43:57 PM
Consistency question - do you have any issue with me renaming / reordering things for consistency?
It depends, I'm sure I get off tangent (as evidenced by all the random-ish posting on thoughts).
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For example, when referring to bows and arrows, in one place you refer to the setup as "arrow in primary hand" whereas later it's "bow in recessive hand."
The check for Bow+Arrow attack power is dependent on where the Bow is placed, but that was late in the findings (past the point when I started writing said document).
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Also, the order in which you present the formulae for standard/unarmed/edge/yang/bow&arrow/monsters differs by section.
Yea, I'll have to look at that... when I started writing the sections, I didn't actually put an order together. Unarmed should go first, then standard, then Bow+Arrow, then character specific (Yang first, and then Edge). Monsters should always be last.
The last part is addressed... because there should be a logical order of sorts... although I wonder if I should Bow+Arrow ahead of the standard...
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: odditude on January 06, 2009, 07:03:40 PM
i'd say standard before special cases, personally.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on January 07, 2009, 06:27:24 AM
i'd say standard before special cases, personally.
Yeah, me too.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: odditude on January 07, 2009, 03:23:50 PM
The following special cases are missing from the Critical Hit modifier section: - bow OR arrow equipped - Edge w/ one weapon, other hand empty
Also, according to the algorithm, the spell multiplier does not affect spell damage at all, only hit rate. Is this correct, or an oversight in the formula?
"There is a bug where monsters count the dead in the algorithm, found in one rare instance. This only applies to the SNES version of the game." What is the rare instance?
"Cure4/Curaja - When an enemy target takes more than 16383 damage, this spell will heal the MP of that target instead due to overflow." What happens if the MP healing overflows (say, if over 34000 damage has already been dealt)?
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on January 07, 2009, 06:50:55 PM
The following special cases are missing from the Critical Hit modifier section: - bow OR arrow equipped
I believe it follows the fists critical hit formula.
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- Edge w/ one weapon, other hand empty
It follows the regular critical hit formula like all characters... half the weapon's attack power.
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Also, according to the algorithm, the spell multiplier does not affect spell damage at all, only hit rate. Is this correct, or an oversight in the formula?
The spell multiplier certainly does affect the spell damage (it assumes the spell is deals damage of course)... however if the spell power of a spell is 0 (Venom/Poison and the Cockatrice summon's attack), it's going to deal 1 damage regardless.
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"There is a bug where monsters count the dead in the algorithm, found in one rare instance. This only applies to the SNES version of the game." What is the rare instance?
If I hadn't mentioned it in the bugs section, the tallest Magus Sister (from the Tower of Zot) casts Cure2/Cura to every living sister (the middle sister is dead to perform this). It happens that factors in the dead... which reduces the overall healing dealt.
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"Cure4/Curaja - When an enemy target takes more than 16383 damage, this spell will heal the MP of that target instead due to overflow." What happens if the MP healing overflows (say, if over 34000 damage has already been dealt)?
I'd rather not find out, I'm sure someone will come along to answer that (or I perform a test of that)...
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on September 30, 2012, 12:14:07 AM
You interested in covering the PlayStation version? I've been playing through it for Tomato and decided to check out some of the bugs.
Back row bit removal: Not fixed Spell timers + Stop: Only tested with Sleep so far. No crash on monsters; still extends status indefinitely. Item duplication: Back after being fixed for Easy Type. (I'd hazard a guess that it was intentionally left unfixed, but who knows)
I didn't take notice to whether arrows are still infinite or not but I'm pretty sure they are, from playing this version in the past. I'll confirm the next time I play. I'll also test critical hits.
New bugs:
Valvalis's spin form doesn't seem to get its defense/evasion boost. This confirms what Ian Kelly claimed in his differences guide, shockingly, given how innaccurate it is about other things. (It still claims you can't hit her at all in the SNES version, which simply isn't true). I dumped her attack sequence in that version and it is identical to the others, so it's not that that was changed. I didn't take notice to Cagnazzo's shell, unfortunately, and I think I've already overwritten my saves from that far back.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on September 30, 2012, 10:59:47 PM
The only time you can't hit Valvalis/Barbariccia is when your hits accuracy is far below the evasion data for the boss. I had a fond memory of trying to attack her with Jump and the Blood/Drain Spear. Despite the hit being a miss more often than not, the Jump aspect still causes her to counter/react. The only other thing probably involves an underleveled Cecil... but meh.
I've always felt the FF Chronicles versions were primarily the ROM+some emulation-ish overlays
PS is not my forte.. but it's good to know nonetheless.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on October 01, 2012, 02:21:29 AM
Yeah, the Blood Spear is the only thing that missed when I was fighting her, and I knew why that was the case. I forgot to test if her magic evasion gets applied, but luckily I did keep a save from then, so I'll get around to that the next time I play.
In general, I'd say you'd be completely safe saying your guide covers the PSX version. It's a straight port of the SNES version, and now it's just a matter of figuring out if any of the other non-critical bugs were fixed (doubtful) or if they broke anything else.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Grimoire LD on October 01, 2012, 07:27:05 AM
Does the Stoneblade still freeze the game?
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on October 01, 2012, 09:13:17 AM
Yeah, the Blood Spear is the only thing that missed when I was fighting her, and I knew why that was the case. I forgot to test if her magic evasion gets applied, but luckily I did keep a save from then, so I'll get around to that the next time I play.
It's either the fact that 255 really means invulnerability or it's the evasion/magic evasion multiplier (99x 99%) that causes it. I haven't actually thoroughly tested that.
I know while in tornado form, she is definitely immune to Slow since her magic defense (along with defense). You can cast Slow on her when she's not in tornado form.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on October 06, 2012, 04:55:32 PM
I tested the Valvalis battle again, and she definitely got the defense bonus this time. So that means either there's a bug that only strikes at random, or I'm an idiot. I'd go with the latter, personally, although I swear I was doing full damage against her in tornado form the first time I played this battle. I checked the screenshots I grabbed, but none of those show the damage I was doing. The magic defense is handled the same way as the original, too.
I guess I'll try it a few more times just so I'm 100% certain.
I forgot to mention it, but I confirmed that arrows aren't fixed. No idea on the Stone/Gorgon sword, I'd probably have to cheat that into the inventory if I want to test it.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on October 11, 2012, 01:48:04 PM
The only thing I have to say in regards to the algo, is that there's no special algo for Double Meteor...
Apparently there is a range cap...
When Spell Power > 510, the range is capped @ 255 (which is always 1/2 of 510). This is also why Meteor (and subsequently Double Meteor) has a very weak range of damage. Where it was originally thought that Meteor would have a range of 400 (800 is the Spell Power), the math doesn't seem to agree with that.
That is something to look at/into...
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on October 20, 2012, 10:10:09 PM
The bug where Kain repeats item/magic use with the Avenger in the Zeromus battle is fixed in the PSX version, like Easy Type. The other Avenger bugs remain (you'd really think they would've caught the bug with berserk Cecil first).
I haven't decided yet, but I may take a look at the WSC version. PSX version just seems to be Easy Type's fixes with FF4's data and the item duplication bug restored for some reason.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on October 21, 2012, 10:41:42 AM
Decided to give the WSC version a go. Not sure if I'll play through the whole thing or not, but I've already made a pretty interesting discovery: Enemy rows are still functional in this version. Seems they broke during the GBA port, not this remake. The targeting works the same way as the GBA version, so sometimes the enemy it starts you on is actually in the back row (three Dive Eagle formation near Baron, for example).
Thinking about throwing together a little site dedicated to documenting this version. "The Forgotten IV" or something. It's closer to the SNES version in terms of presentation than I remembered.
:edit:
Tellah missing doesn't progress the Bard battle, same as the first GBA version.
(http://dkk.slickproductions.org/images/ff4/wsc_dkcecilcover.png) Confirmed that dark knight Cecil auto covers critical allies.
Gilbert/Edward doesn't seem to auto hide. (Nevermind, just saw him do it.)
Gradual petrify actually works in this version, and seems to go much faster than in the SNES version. In addition to the light gray squiggles characters get in the GBA version, the character's sprite gets progressively grayer as they petrify. This isn't like the SNES version where they turn to stone from bottom up, they start with a dark gray tint and it gets more pronounced at the next level of petrification. Only certain colors of the sprite change, seems like they were going for skin and hair on Rydia, but Cecil's armor changes.
When I healed Cecil of stone status, the shades of yellow on his boots never updated and stayed gray. Stone bug affects Edward too, probably everyone. (Maybe this is an emulation issue? No real way of telling, but seems almost too obvious to overlook.)
Double turns seem to be present. Wasn't sure at first, there's no ATB bar to make it apparent in this version and it's not uncommon for Cecil to get more turns than anyone else in the beginning, but I've had the command window pop up immediately after attacking with Cecil and Edward, same as the bugged GBA versions.
There's an annoying feature in the field equip menu where the item menu stays open even after you've equipped something. Additionally, trying to equip more of the same arrows will just swap the quantities instead of adding them.
I forgot to mention it, but elemental rods are single target, like the GBA version. Already knew about that, so I completely neglected to post it.
Bows and arrows seem to work correctly from both rows.
It doesn't seem possible to make a character permanently long range.
Yang's Power command seems to "charge" a lot faster in this.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Grimoire LD on October 21, 2012, 02:19:59 PM
Those are some really weird changes. Seriously, Dark Knight Cecil using Auto-Cover? That's just such a strange function to include to begin with. Does that mean that Paladin Cecil no longer Auto-covers or is this a shift in data so they both can do so?
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on October 21, 2012, 08:57:34 PM
My guess is that a lot of these bugs usually are porting issues.
For instance, the back row bugs are easy to fix when you completely redo the data structure.
However, the auto-Cover code for DK Cecil is probably a result of trying to change a bit of the battle code. There's a shot that Paladin Cecil won't have auto-Cover...
In the GBA version, you can "revert" back to DK Cecil with cheats (using a Gameshark AFAIK). The game still recognizes him as Cecil, but even the DK Cecil profile is still part of the data storage (while you may still be grinding to level 99) and if they really wanted to, could write code to use him in some oddball scenario.
So, it shouldn't be surprising how these bugs are created at times....
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on October 22, 2012, 11:52:22 AM
Yeah, I'm sure covering is just an accidental result of them making Cecil's two classes more interconnected in this. What bums me out is the fact that enemy rows and gradual petrification were functional and they broke them for the GBA release. I always blamed all of the GBA version's bugs on this remake, but no, it was just a lousy port. I'm amazed they fixed cover.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on October 26, 2012, 12:09:19 AM
Is there a recommended WSC emu that I should be using? Oswan is OK but feels a tad foreign despite being functional.
The first auto-battle enemies are not weak to Fire, thus dishing less damage.
At least the Status menu can get you to show the equipment....
:edit: Nice to know the WSC port was the first to remove the hidden item in Rosa's House.
I don't remember Titan's Quake to deal that much damage....
:edit: Sight's Overworld Map is introduced in this version (and very much needed by design). "Targeting" sucks in this version as noted before. I get the odd feeling that critical hit algo needs some work, or it's 2x the attack power in the WSC version. Dashing with the B-button works in this version (not automatic). Two buttons seem to do cool things - one goes to magic, the other goes to the item list (feels like BOF where you could do that).
:edit: It's either bad luck... or Tellah can't seem to use Recall vs the Octomammoth... This is where the lame "reacting to physical attacks" and Miss! began (the Tellah-Spoony Bard forever sequence)
:edit: I've just noticed this... there is no desert area around the Antlion's Cave in the WS version (it is shown as a lighter ground area). This extended into FF4A US/Jap 1.0. There is supposed to be desert there, which is noticeable in FF4 and FF4A Euro/Jap 1.1.
The ghostlyish female monster in the Antlion's Cave... it has an odd visual when attacking, where only the upper half of the body seems to be attacking, instead of the whole body flashing.
:edit: The RNG doesn't seem to have issues (it must have something to do with the GBA itself, or whatever libs the idiot port users were using for RANDOMIZATION... which technically includes the Wii port since it's inheriting that trait). Multitargeting characters seems to target a hiding Edward, despite it not being successful. Yang's back row appearance in his auto-battle (regardless of the spare slot he starts in) started from the GBA port. The WS port does not have that happen. Note: DS port seems to let you control Yang, PSP seems to use "dummy monsters" that don't attack (to keep Yang damage free).
Minor notes for Walkthrough: Cecil @ level 13 for 3x Attack Multiplier, Rydia @ level 8 for 1x Defense Multiplier Rydia @ level 12 for 5x Int Multiplier, 13 for Toad, Edward @ level 10 for 2x Attack Multiplier Edward @ level 18 for 3x Attack + 2x Defense Multiplier for overkill, Yang @ level 14 for 3x Attack Multiplier
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on October 26, 2012, 01:53:09 PM
Cool, you picked up on a bunch of stuff I overlooked (and some I neglected to mention). Recall definitely works in the Octomammoth battle; I hit the bastard with Bio. :banonsmash:
You can actually customize what the Y buttons do out of battle in the config menu. (The 1.0/US GBA version still has these strings.)
I'm using Oswan too. There's a new version entirely on Japanese on the emulator's Sourceforge page if you want to give that a try.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on October 26, 2012, 02:16:57 PM
Well, I'm sure there's more to be found. Kinda makes me wish someone translated this if not to make my life easier.
The Y-button config is interesting IMO. It really does remind me of BOF SNES version's ultra configurable system.
I'm pretty sure I'm using the latest emu from the SF site.
The "new Fabul desert" started in this version of the game.... not that it makes a big diff.
Also, battle statuses seem to be auto-determined (the battle monster set itself works like the SNES version, but I'm talking specifically about the preemptive strike/back attack/surprise status).
Hide works like FF4A, so I guess that's an upgrade.
I'll be grinding a bit on the peninsula of power for bit... :P
:edit: I swear, Bows+Arrows feel so crippled in this version. I'm pretty sure this is the version that added the Bow+Arrow bug (specifically the Back/Ignore Row attribute). Aim didn't have this problem, but Aim fixes so many other lameness on its own.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on October 29, 2012, 01:36:11 AM
Some more bugs regarding the WSC version:
In the mini-battle before fighting Yang, you aren't supposed to get XP+Gold from the battle. Only the WSC version gives you that...
Yang gets a 99% hit rate when he has two claws - regardless of what those two claws are (remember the Fairy Claw has naturally some low accuracy, so it's impossible to get 99% when combined with an elemental claw). Another WSC specific bug...
"Modified" Spirit stat (after equipment bonuses/adjustments) are not factored into non-battle healing. Although these bonuses work in battle, they are not applied into the special healing algo used outside of battle. This applies to the WSC version AND FF4A US/Jap 1.0 versions. It appears to be fixed in FF4A Euro/Jap 1.1 versions. This bug really is annoying, with a minor side benefit (when you're using the Minerva Robe and/or Cursed Ring).
Slumber Sword works like FF4A - which is where we know this started from...
Bard's Clothes (the armor Edward starts with) costs 700GP instead of 70GP.
Monster MP = HP/8 instead of HP/16 (this trend started in the WSC version, applied to FF4A and probably the PSP port as well).
Like weapons and shields, the other equipment is highlighted in battle... as if you could use/equip them. However, there is no method that I know that would allow you to switch any armor (non-shields) in battle. I wonder if they stole some code of a different port... like billions of FF1 ports...
:edit: Before I sleep... I needed to write this... Dr. Lugae's Poison Gas in the WSC version only applies Poison status (no damage) to the characters. This also translates to FF4A. The SNES version dealt damage in addition to poison (although generally irrelevant damage).
Item drops are decided after each kill... I'm trying to recall how FF4A calculates it, but I know that the SNES version determines the drops at the end of battle.
Also... despite the music being rather inferior to the original... the WSC version retains the sound effects far better than FF4A (GBA)... pretty damn close to the SNES versions. Most notable sounds include the Legend Sword and the Icebrand.
:edit: Blood Lance has the same sound effect as the Legend Sword (or any Holy elemental sword for that matter).
I get the real feeling that the back row bug is still in full force in this game.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on November 01, 2012, 01:32:42 AM
Weapon elemental weaknesses from the Flame/Ice Armor sets still work like FF4... so it was "fixed" in FF4A.
I've noticed some odd fidgeting that Kain does when he's the middle character... and it usually happens after he jumps. I don't know what to make of that.
:edit: There is no monster chest for the Defender.... go figure.
Also, I found it really odd that putting the Bog Witch into Toad status causes her to be "difficult to target" (this is the 6 TinyToad battle version, where she is surrounded by the Toads). This occurs as well in FF4A... but it never happened in the SNES versions.
:edit: I never quite understood why Asura's "radius" was moved. Magic and physical attacks still look OK, but it's not centered at all, like the original.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on November 07, 2012, 03:31:16 PM
The Warlock's battle script is reproduced incorrectly in the WSC port.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on November 09, 2012, 11:06:39 PM
More updates...
Aim and Throw do not trigger the Counter vs HP damage trigger.
Once in a while, the monster would damage Cecil in a strange visual....
The Enterprise seems to move for some reason, after you get out of the underground with the Falcon's drill.
This version of the game does not implement Berserk resistance through the Ribbon.
Berserk "waits" for others (yay Flan Princess battle testing).
Jump seems to still go through after going under Berserk status through the Flan Princess's Dance. The Berserk bonus is applied to the Jump damage.
:edit: Hug/Embrace uses the Break/Stone sound instead of the Cure sound.
:edit: The Giant of Babil endgame scenario hasn't changed... so it appears that FF4A made the change.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on November 13, 2012, 04:02:37 PM
This is probably the very last post regarding the WSC version.
Zeromus does not cast Meteor when critical. This is fixed in FF4A.
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Grimoire LD on February 05, 2013, 02:32:39 PM
I didn't know where else to put it and it's not exactly "scientific" nor am I sure it's not been posted somewhere (since it seems very easy to test)
The effect of a weapons/item spell is the Damage of the Actual Spell and the Item's "spell power" appears to be the multiplier. Yet here's an oddity I find difficult to explain. For testing I changed Rod's spell power to 1 and the item spell power to 10. To most enemies it was doing 40-60 damage as the data should show. But of all things it was dealing only one damage to SwordRats.
I set the Rod's Item Power to 255 and it was still dealing 1 damage to SwordRats while dealing low 1000's to everything else. It's fairly strange. Do SwordRats really have any measure of magic defense?
Title: Re: FF4 Algo - Input Requested
Post by: Deathlike2 on February 05, 2013, 03:32:48 PM
Swordrats have magic defense, and if you've ever bothered using the weaker Ice or Flame Rods on them during your original trip to Mt. Ordeals, you would find that they really suck.