Library of the Ancients => Final Fantasy IV Research & Development => Topic started by: Deathlike2 on December 14, 2007, 11:20:55 AM
Title: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 14, 2007, 11:20:55 AM
Can someone name the resistances/attributes of the Grudger? (blue female spirit that absorbs lightning)
For some reason the Drain Sword is doing half damage to it.. so I think it has some drain elemental resistances.. yet it doesn't stop the Drain spell... :hmm:
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Pinkpuff on December 14, 2007, 01:40:56 PM
Absorbs, lightning, weak to holy
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 14, 2007, 01:47:04 PM
That's the info that can be gotten from the FF4A Beastiary, but that's not what I'm looking for. I get the feeling there are other bytes set that aren't displayed on such a beastiary.
For instance, the FF5A Beastiary doesn't cover the "Heavy" attribute that is usually applied to bosses, but is also applied to a number of regular enemies... none of which is displayed in the FF5A Beastiary.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 14, 2007, 06:42:21 PM
This is interesting, in FF2us all it has is a holy weakness. In FF4 and Easy Type it absorbs lighting and has its holy weakness.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 14, 2007, 07:11:55 PM
I think that sounds about right between FF2 and the other versions about this monster..
Anyways I wondering if there were Drain resistances enabled on this monster.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 14, 2007, 07:48:00 PM
No drain resistance.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Pinkpuff on December 14, 2007, 07:58:15 PM
I didn't get that information from the bestiary by the way. There's a hacking tool called FF4 SMCHack that I've been using. It lets you edit spells, weapons, armor, items, monsters, monster groups... very useful.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 14, 2007, 07:59:08 PM
Then what would cause it to deal less damage on it then?
Unless the Drain Sword has other properties that I'm not aware of... it doesn't make sense to me how that monster takes less damage than the next closest monster (the Blademan).
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 14, 2007, 08:01:16 PM
I didn't get that information from the bestiary by the way. There's a hacking tool called FF4 SMCHack that I've been using. It lets you edit spells, weapons, armor, items, monsters, monster groups... very useful.
Zyrthofar's editor. JCE and I have an updated version, it lost item and magic editing support but gained a ton of stability, I've never had it crash or corrupt my ROM unlike the previous public release.
Edit: I was mistaken, I just took a look and it still has item editing, only magic editing was lost.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Pinkpuff on December 14, 2007, 08:04:47 PM
Could it be that things with the absorb flag resist drain?
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 14, 2007, 08:08:11 PM
That actually makes a lot of sense, absorb takes the place of drain in the resistance list. Does FF2us 1.0 behave the same way for this monster or just FF2us 1.1, FF4, and Easy Type?
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 14, 2007, 08:15:10 PM
I'm pretty sure this is consistant with all versions, including FF4A. I was confused for a moment though... I'm not familiar with the "Absorbs" flag.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Pinkpuff on December 14, 2007, 08:21:33 PM
Basically, each unit has a resistance flag called "absorbs" which, if set, causes it to absorb the elements it would otherwise be resistant to. So you can't have a unit which absorbs lightning but only resists fire. It either absorbs lightning and fire or it resists lightning and fire.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 14, 2007, 08:25:57 PM
I'm pretty sure this is consistant with all versions, including FF4A. I was confused for a moment though... I'm not familiar with the "Absorbs" flag.
FF2us 1.0 doesn't have absorb set, so if it behaves the same way in that then the flag can't be the cause, as much sense as it makes.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Pinkpuff on December 14, 2007, 08:31:49 PM
Quote
FF2us doesn't have absorb set
Do you mean that the Grudger in FF2us doesn't have the absorb flag set? Because in the version I have it does...
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 14, 2007, 08:41:30 PM
In FF2us 1.1 it has it's absorb and lightning properties back...must've been a mistake when they took them away. I just updated my previous posts to clarify that I was referring to 1.0.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 14, 2007, 08:43:10 PM
Pictures time! Will edit as I upload pics on dialup.
Done uploading. As you can see, the drain damage is consistant on all SNES versions.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 14, 2007, 08:50:09 PM
Just for fun, the correct name for that monster in Easy Type is Lady Peach/Peach Lady. All three of those ghosts are named after fruit for some reason, Weeper/Leshy is Lady Plum and Screamer is Lady Cherry. Is there some reference I'm missing or were the developers just hungry for fruit the day they came up with those?
Edit: Just saw your edit. So the damage is the same in 1.0 and 1.1? Back to it not making any sense then, I thought we had figured it out. :sad:
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 14, 2007, 08:53:01 PM
Someone was bored, that's for sure. The pics explain themselves... almost anyways.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 14, 2007, 09:56:16 PM
Well, FF2 US v1.0 was buggy enough to have a revision... :tongue:
In any case, it almost makes sense to me... but that doesn't imply protection against Weak though... :hmm:
I'd swear you need some sort kind of "shrugs" icon...
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Pinkpuff on December 15, 2007, 05:38:30 AM
It looks like the only version in which she is weak to drain is FF4ET. Maybe that's the one with the bug and the rest are correct.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 15, 2007, 09:50:59 AM
If you haven't figured this out yet, spirits have a built-in resistance to drain, I tested on my last playthrough.
That's not entirely correct. The Weeper monster (from the Antlion's Cave) is not resistant to the Drain/Blood weaponry. Only the absorb attribute is at play.
There's also the Ghost Knight from the Tower of Babil (upper section via Cave Eblana). It isn't resistant to the Drain/Blood weaponry.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on February 06, 2008, 07:15:00 AM
There's also the Ghost Knight from the Tower of Babil (upper section via Cave Eblana). It isn't resistant to the Drain/Blood weaponry.
Yes it is, that's what I tested on. I was playing the PSX version if it makes any difference.
AFAIK, it has been said that subtle changes were made. My spirit info is consistant with all the SNES versions and the GBA version.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Phoenix on May 22, 2008, 03:05:13 AM
Quote from: Dragonsbrethren
FF2us 1.0 doesn't have absorb set, so if it behaves the same way in that then the flag can't be the cause, as much sense as it makes.
FF2us 1.0 does have the absorb flag set. I just stepped through all the differences between the 1.0 and 1.1, and all but four changes are in the 18000-20000 range. I'm not sure why your version didn't have the Grudger absorbing lightning.
Quote from: Dragonsbrethren
If you haven't figured this out yet, spirits have a built-in resistance to drain, I tested on my last playthrough.
Quote from: Deathlike2
That's not entirely correct. The Weeper monster (from the Antlion's Cave) is not resistant to the Drain/Blood weaponry. Only the absorb attribute is at play.
In relation to the discussion on whether or not spirits have resistance to Drain: I tested it, and for FF2us at least spirits are not resistant to Drain-elemental. I'm pretty sure this is the same for all versions. In reference to the Grudger: it isn't actually a spirit-type monster at all. It has no type (verified within the hex data).
Deathlike2 was right about the real reason the Grudger resists Drain-elemental weapons: it's because it has the drain/absorb flag set on their elemental defenses. The absorb flag only works for elementals lower than itself (fire/ice/lightning/dark/holy/spears&arrows). So the game is reading that flag as a "drain-resistant" defense. Two other spirit-type monsters (Spirit and Soul) have this flag set as well, which makes it seem like spirits are resistant. However, the Weeper is a spirit-type monster but has no absorption, which is why it isn't resistant to Drain-elemental weapons.
Here's some fun facts that I discovered while testing this. There are only five spirit monsters in the entire game: Weeper (16), Spirit (22), Hooligan (27), Soul (2E), and BladeMan (4E). Other enemies that you might think are spirit monsters (Grudger (3E), Screamer (4A), Ghost (54), Breath (80), Mind (83)) are not. The Grudger, Screamer, and Ghost are probably oversites, considering that they match the graphic template for the other spirit monsters. I always thought Breath and Mind were, but I guess that could have been just me. I'm not sure why the Hooligan is included . . . the other matching graphic template (Gargoyle) is a reptile, which seems more appropriate. The Screamer is actually classified as a machine and a giant, which I'm pretty sure is a mistake. Most of the other enemy types, if they had them, seemed to fit.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Deathlike2 on May 22, 2008, 11:47:43 AM
I'm not sure where you are getting the Dragon part from.. the FF4 editor released on the zyrothgar's website is a bit buggy and totally messes up displaying (and occasionally editing) enemy data.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Phoenix on May 22, 2008, 05:38:30 PM
I use a Mac, so I don't use any editors. I only read the hex data. However, for my information on enemy type I was using the Tower of Bab-il document on enemy data. I had checked most of them against the internal values in the ROM, but I didn't for the Weeper's and Mombomb's, which turned out to be errors in the document. So you're right, the Weeper is only a spirit, and Mombomb has no enemy type (and is instead weak to dark). So, that's good, at least there aren't mistakes there. I'll edit my original post to reflect this.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Deathlike2 on May 22, 2008, 06:12:58 PM
I don't recall any non-obvious stuff in the monster data... a bunch of the Tower of Bab-il docs refer with Undead/Mechs as invulnerable to status changes, but that simply is not the case. It just happens that most undead tends to have resistance to poison/death and most mechs have resistances to everything. Those docs are a nice baseline, but it's always worth rechecking what stuff means if there's an inconsistancy.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on May 22, 2008, 11:52:48 PM
FF2us 1.0 doesn't have absorb set, so if it behaves the same way in that then the flag can't be the cause, as much sense as it makes.
FF2us 1.0 does have the absorb flag set. I just stepped through all the differences between the 1.0 and 1.1, and all but four changes are in the 18000-20000 range. I'm not sure why your version didn't have the Grudger absorbing lightning.
I just looked at it in a clean ROM and you're right, I have no idea why it wasn't set in the copy I was looking at it in before.
As for my comment about a built-in resistance, that's the way it seemed to me when I was playing through the PSX version. I guess it's possible they changed something, but I have a feeling it was just the reduced hit rate throwing me off. The monster I was testing against is BladeMan, which definitely isn't taking reduced damage in any of the other versions.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Phoenix on May 23, 2008, 02:29:43 AM
Does anyone know if they changed the Grudger/Screamer/Ghost to spirit-type enemies in the Playstation version or FF4A?
Also, I noticed that the Tower of Bab-il document had some misaligned numbers for the BladeMan, who is also spirit-type (which was mentioned here before, but not named). I added it to my original post.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Phoenix on May 25, 2008, 06:04:16 PM
Quote
I don't recall any non-obvious stuff in the monster data... a bunch of the Tower of Bab-il docs refer with Undead/Mechs as invulnerable to status changes, but that simply is not the case. It just happens that most undead tends to have resistance to poison/death and most mechs have resistances to everything. Those docs are a nice baseline, but it's always worth rechecking what stuff means if there's an inconsistancy.
There's actually a piece of code within the status spell subroutine that does a check for spirits, machines, and undead, and exits the subroutine if that's the case. I was puzzled as to why this wasn't working (the Screamer, for instance, is a machine without status immunities and can be affected by status changes) so I went back and looked at the subroutine again. It turns out it exits if the spell is an instant death spell and the enemy is a spirit/machine/undead. So the Tower of Bab-il documents weren't way off (they obviously had seen that piece of code) they just missed the other piece of the puzzle. Spirits/machines/undead are inherently immune to death spells.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Monster Resistances
Post by: Deathlike2 on May 25, 2008, 06:15:30 PM
Well, it's simply just death. Odin isn't classified as instant death (it doesn't inflict Death status to be specific), even though the result is that.
That sounds a bit better than the previously documented behavior and oddly sounds like obscure, but sane behavior.
This behavior seems to be applying to FF4A as well.