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Deathlike2

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Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« on: December 06, 2007, 04:12:33 PM »
I thought a bit about this and did a little testing on this, and I came to these conclusions (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):

1) Elemental Resistance Against Physical Attacks:
If an enemy is resistant to your elemental based physical attack, you will deal 1/2 as much damage as normal... or in the worst case, Dark Knight (Darkness) weaponry vs Zombies (is there a specific multiplier/divider?).

If your weapon's elemental is effective against the enemy, you will deal 2x damage (sometimes 4x, unless there's something specific I'm missing here?).

If your weapon has an enemy type property, a specific "enemy type multiplier" is in use? In other words, all anti-Dragon weaponry will deal 4x damage, regardless (Whip, Spear, Arrows)...

If you are two handed (Yang/Edge), or your weapon has both an elemental+enemy type attribute... the target that has a weakness to the any of the attacks will take precedence over the resistance (if it even applies).

For instance, if you attack a FlameDog with a FireClaw+IceClaw, the Ice Claw takes precedence over the Fire Claw, therefore dealing awesome damage.

In FF4A, the Apollo Harp has the Fire attribute (I think) and the Dragon attribute. Attacking the Blue Dragon will allow the Dragon attibute to take precedence over the Fire resistance. Similar thing would occur with the Dragon Claw+any of the elemental Claws...

2) Elemental Resistance Against Magical Attacks:
If you are weak to an elemental, you will take 2x (or 4x in some instances?) damage.

If you are resistant to an elemental, you will take 1/2 damage (rare for enemies, usually applicable to character equipment).

If you can absorb an elemental, invert damage intake (though, some attacks seem to do 1 point of healing).

If there is an uninterrupted sequence of attacks, any elemental based attack that you can absorb or resist (absorbing taking precedence), all further attacks will accumulate against applied absorption/resistance.

Does this sound about right?
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2007, 05:11:03 PM »
Yeah, that all sounds right.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2007, 05:40:39 PM »
Regarding the immune flag on the Glass Helm/Adamant Armor and the absorb flag (is that even the correct name?) on the Hero Shield (FF4A only), Cursed Ring, and Ribbon (FF4ET)...

The immune flag is consistant on all ports (FF2/4/4ET/A):

By itself with the Glass Helm, it provides zero additional protection, even if other equipment provides elemental protection.

On the Adamant Armor, elemental damage (specifically Fire, Ice, and Lightning) is 1 damage except if the elemental attack is maxHP based, where you take damage as if you were resistant to the attack which usually has a different formula calculation.

The absorb flag is applied completely differently between the SNES ports (FF2/4/4ET) and GBA ports (FF4A):

The Cursed Ring and Hero Shield (FF4A) work the same way when there is no additional elemental protection provided by other equipment... there is no protection provided at all.

If elemental protection is provided (the Ribbon in FF4ET has it built in), then take all elemental damage (including Holy, and perhaps others) and invert it as healing. The behavior though is completely different across ports... as described here:

SNES/GBA: If the elemental attack does not rely on maxHP, but rather by enemy magic power, the attack must be calculated against your magic defense. This is why the Cursed Ring reduced your stats... it is to increase the impact of the elemental healing. The Hero Shield technically does the opposite by reducing the healing.

SNES specific: If the elemental attack relies on maxHP, all elemental damage is 1 and inverted meaning that you will always get healed by 1 pt.

GBA specific: If the elemental attack relies on maxHP, the damage dealt depends on said attack (attacks will deal randomized damage based on the enemy's magic power applied against your magic defense or it will deal full damage as if you were not resistant to the elemental)  and damage is inverted.

There is only one clear difference between FF2/4/4ET (SNES) and FF4A (GBA). The Immune flag takes precedence over the Absorb flag in FF2/4/4ET. It is the opposite in FF4A (Absorb flag takes precedence over the Immune flag).

If anyone needs examples, feel free to ask. Enemies used in testing include the Gold Dragon (King-Ryu in FF2) for it's maxHP lightning attack, Silver Dragon (Ging-Ryu in FF2) for its multitargeted Ice Blaze attack (when it has a partner), and Red Dragon for its multitargeted unavoidable Fire attack (when it is alone).
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 05:46:42 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Deathlike2

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2007, 05:59:44 PM »
Ok, according to the FF4A document (not sure if its totally correct).. the Glass Helmet in FF4A does not have the immune attribute.

This implies that it was a mistake to have it on the Glass Helmet. This attribute completely relies on the elemental attributes of equipment that it is attached to (Adamant Armor).
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Entroper

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2007, 08:38:07 PM »
Quote from: Deathlike2 on December 06, 2007, 04:12:33 PM
If your weapon's elemental is effective against the enemy, you will deal 2x damage (sometimes 4x, unless there's something specific I'm missing here?).

Enemy elemental weaknesses use the most significant bit as a doubler.  So if the fire bit and the MSB are set (this is the immunity bit on resistances), fire damage does 4x damage.

Are zombies immune to dark elemental attacks?  EDIT: Just checked this in the spreadsheet, and they are.  That explains the 1 damage from Cecil's dark knight swords.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2007, 09:15:04 PM »
Quote from: Entroper on December 27, 2007, 08:38:07 PM
Quote from: Deathlike2 on December 06, 2007, 04:12:33 PM
If your weapon's elemental is effective against the enemy, you will deal 2x damage (sometimes 4x, unless there's something specific I'm missing here?).

Enemy elemental weaknesses use the most significant bit as a doubler.  So if the fire bit and the MSB are set (this is the immunity bit on resistances), fire damage does 4x damage.

Are zombies immune to dark elemental attacks?  EDIT: Just checked this in the spreadsheet, and they are.  That explains the 1 damage from Cecil's dark knight swords.

Once in a blue moon, Zombies will take more than 1 pt of damage on a critical hit. I'd consider the attribute more like 4x Darkness resistance vs Zombies (dividing any target's attack/magic power by 4 is crippling).
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Entroper

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2007, 08:44:15 AM »
Quote from: Deathlike2 on December 27, 2007, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Entroper on December 27, 2007, 08:38:07 PM
Quote from: Deathlike2 on December 06, 2007, 04:12:33 PM
If your weapon's elemental is effective against the enemy, you will deal 2x damage (sometimes 4x, unless there's something specific I'm missing here?).

Enemy elemental weaknesses use the most significant bit as a doubler.  So if the fire bit and the MSB are set (this is the immunity bit on resistances), fire damage does 4x damage.

Are zombies immune to dark elemental attacks?  EDIT: Just checked this in the spreadsheet, and they are.  That explains the 1 damage from Cecil's dark knight swords.

Once in a blue moon, Zombies will take more than 1 pt of damage on a critical hit. I'd consider the attribute more like 4x Darkness resistance vs Zombies (dividing any target's attack/magic power by 4 is crippling).

As far as I can tell, there's no such thing as 4x resistance.  And the Zombie does have dark immunity in the ROM.  Do critical hits ignore the immunity bit?
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Deathlike2

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2007, 08:59:50 AM »
Quote from: Entroper on December 28, 2007, 08:44:15 AM
Quote from: Deathlike2 on December 27, 2007, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Entroper on December 27, 2007, 08:38:07 PM
Quote from: Deathlike2 on December 06, 2007, 04:12:33 PM
If your weapon's elemental is effective against the enemy, you will deal 2x damage (sometimes 4x, unless there's something specific I'm missing here?).

Enemy elemental weaknesses use the most significant bit as a doubler.  So if the fire bit and the MSB are set (this is the immunity bit on resistances), fire damage does 4x damage.

Are zombies immune to dark elemental attacks?  EDIT: Just checked this in the spreadsheet, and they are.  That explains the 1 damage from Cecil's dark knight swords.

Once in a blue moon, Zombies will take more than 1 pt of damage on a critical hit. I'd consider the attribute more like 4x Darkness resistance vs Zombies (dividing any target's attack/magic power by 4 is crippling).

As far as I can tell, there's no such thing as 4x resistance.  And the Zombie does have dark immunity in the ROM.  Do critical hits ignore the immunity bit?

Definately not. The damage done is still pathetic.
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Entroper

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2007, 09:58:28 AM »
Quote from: Deathlike2 on December 28, 2007, 08:59:50 AM
Quote from: Entroper on December 28, 2007, 08:44:15 AM
Quote from: Deathlike2 on December 27, 2007, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Entroper on December 27, 2007, 08:38:07 PM
Quote from: Deathlike2 on December 06, 2007, 04:12:33 PM
If your weapon's elemental is effective against the enemy, you will deal 2x damage (sometimes 4x, unless there's something specific I'm missing here?).

Enemy elemental weaknesses use the most significant bit as a doubler.  So if the fire bit and the MSB are set (this is the immunity bit on resistances), fire damage does 4x damage.

Are zombies immune to dark elemental attacks?  EDIT: Just checked this in the spreadsheet, and they are.  That explains the 1 damage from Cecil's dark knight swords.

Once in a blue moon, Zombies will take more than 1 pt of damage on a critical hit. I'd consider the attribute more like 4x Darkness resistance vs Zombies (dividing any target's attack/magic power by 4 is crippling).

As far as I can tell, there's no such thing as 4x resistance.  And the Zombie does have dark immunity in the ROM.  Do critical hits ignore the immunity bit?

Definately not. The damage done is still pathetic.

I don't mean it ignores the dark resistance, but ignores the immunity (so it does more than 1 damage, but still crap).
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Deathlike2

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2007, 10:29:13 AM »
Quote from: Entroper on December 28, 2007, 09:58:28 AM
Quote from: Deathlike2 on December 28, 2007, 08:59:50 AM
Quote from: Entroper on December 28, 2007, 08:44:15 AM
Quote from: Deathlike2 on December 27, 2007, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Entroper on December 27, 2007, 08:38:07 PM
Quote from: Deathlike2 on December 06, 2007, 04:12:33 PM
If your weapon's elemental is effective against the enemy, you will deal 2x damage (sometimes 4x, unless there's something specific I'm missing here?).

Enemy elemental weaknesses use the most significant bit as a doubler.  So if the fire bit and the MSB are set (this is the immunity bit on resistances), fire damage does 4x damage.

Are zombies immune to dark elemental attacks?  EDIT: Just checked this in the spreadsheet, and they are.  That explains the 1 damage from Cecil's dark knight swords.

Once in a blue moon, Zombies will take more than 1 pt of damage on a critical hit. I'd consider the attribute more like 4x Darkness resistance vs Zombies (dividing any target's attack/magic power by 4 is crippling).

As far as I can tell, there's no such thing as 4x resistance.  And the Zombie does have dark immunity in the ROM.  Do critical hits ignore the immunity bit?

Definately not. The damage done is still pathetic.

I don't mean it ignores the dark resistance, but ignores the immunity (so it does more than 1 damage, but still crap).

Quoted text gets insanely smaller...  :tongue:

Critical hits on occasion will do more than 1 damage, but also regular hits can, but much more infrequently.

As far as I know, "immunity" for physical attacks (elemental or not) is not used the true sense in this game. It tends to be more flan-like (high defense) and if you manage to have enough attack power (usually helped with a critical hit), you can penetrate through the defense. It is unlike equipment magic immunity where 1 damage will be inflicted for elementals (on the other hand, it doesn't handle elemental attacks involving maxHP).
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 10:59:16 AM by Deathlike2 »
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Entroper

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2007, 11:06:21 AM »
It must add a constant bonus to the enemy's defense then.  The Zombie's defense rating is 1, so it would need a huge multiplier to nullify even early-game Cecil's attack power.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2007, 11:12:44 AM »
Quote from: Entroper on December 28, 2007, 11:06:21 AM
It must add a constant bonus to the enemy's defense then.  The Zombie's defense rating is 1, so it would need a huge multiplier to nullify even early-game Cecil's attack power.

Well, if you say it is immune... I'd say it is Defense = 254.

Once in a blue moon, you can actually do more than 1 damage vs Flans, but that's a rare feat. That sounds most logical here.
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Entroper

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2007, 11:32:23 AM »
Something that makes this extra confusing is the defense multiplier.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2007, 02:51:34 PM »
Quote from: Entroper on December 28, 2007, 11:32:23 AM
Something that makes this extra confusing is the defense multiplier.

Well, my point is that the defense is penetrable, although rare, but it happens.

It's either some defense increase, or a damage multiplier decrease.

The reason why I say the attack power/multiplier is reduced by 4 has significant value.. and this is commonly used to reduce relatively harmful attacks into virtually nothing (to 1 damage in this instance).

As a suggestion to testing it.. make any of the Dark Knight's weaponry attack power at 255 attack power + 99% hit rate. Then tweak your own attack multiplier via AGI/STR hacking and see how that goes.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 03:27:33 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Deathlike2

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Re: Elemental (and Enemy) Resistances - Physical+Magical
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2008, 12:24:58 AM »
Hmm... I wonder if the Dragon Claw limits the damage to 2x on Blue Dragons because of its Holy resistance...

You see, Rosa with the Artemis Arrows never seem to do 9999 damage, because the Blue Dragon is resistant to projectiles.. I wonder how a favorable enemy type multiplier works against a non-favorable elemental multiplier other than Aerial/Projectiles (resistance or absorb should equally work well...)

If someone is able to test this, it would be appreciated.

Edit: I don't think it's needed. Edward's Apollo Harp is Fire elemental.. and so that seems to limit his potential damage on the Blue Dragon.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 01:00:03 AM by Deathlike2 »
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