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Dragonsbrethren

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Ambidextrous characters and shields
« on: July 17, 2008, 12:11:50 AM »
Ambidextrous characters cannot equip shields in the SNES version; they will "dance" in the shop menu when buying one, but the shield will be grayed out in the menu. In battle the shield is lit up but you're prevented from equipping it in either hand. I suspect this has to do with the fact that the character has two dominate hands, shields are probably coded to only work in the recessive hand. There's also a dummied handedness that only allows shields to be equipped - it gives the character two recessive hands.

This was changed for the GBA version, both Yang and Edge can equip the Hero's Shield in either or both of their hands.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2008, 12:32:48 AM »
I'm not surprised by this... though this probably benefits Yang the most IMO.

Edit: As an aside, you could manipulate the ambidextrous non-dominant hands for Edge and make a solo Bow/Arrow or Shield as a tradeoff option (power vs defense).
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 01:45:15 AM by Deathlike2 »
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2008, 05:50:09 AM »
A very interesting idea you have there. Have you done any testing with the double recessive ambidextrous? I haven't, I don't know if that character would be able to equip a bow and arrow or not, all I know is that they can equip shields. To fully make use of the idea you'd have to expand the amount of bows and arrows (Unless you wanted to sacrifice a good number of them). Because of the way bow and arrow animations work there would be no way of telling them from a normal katana, except I don't think you'd get a hit from each weapon - another thing I haven't tested in detail but probably should.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2008, 10:19:12 AM »
Quote from: Dragonsbrethren on July 17, 2008, 05:50:09 AM
A very interesting idea you have there. Have you done any testing with the double recessive ambidextrous? I haven't, I don't know if that character would be able to equip a bow and arrow or not, all I know is that they can equip shields. To fully make use of the idea you'd have to expand the amount of bows and arrows (Unless you wanted to sacrifice a good number of them). Because of the way bow and arrow animations work there would be no way of telling them from a normal katana, except I don't think you'd get a hit from each weapon - another thing I haven't tested in detail but probably should.

I've done neither. You would have to test for yourself. My guess is that the Bow+Arrow checks either the dominant or recessive hand to calculate the attack power reduction when it is applicable. Since both are recessive, the reduction is a given (opposite of a both dominant hand option). I was talking more of the empty other hand option (configuring the fist with either bow or arrow option), though this means you want to rid of all other bow+arrow options (and limit it to just one) because you would abuse that property.
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 06:34:26 PM »
Alright, I'll give it a try later tonight.

Quote from: Deathlike2 on July 17, 2008, 10:19:12 AM
I was talking more of the empty other hand option (configuring the fist with either bow or arrow option), though this means you want to rid of all other bow+arrow options (and limit it to just one) because you would abuse that property.

I've actually considered that myself, just using the normal right-handedness. With the arrow property on any unarmed hand they'd use the unarmed animation normally, but when a bow was equipped in their other hand they'd fire an arrow using the bow's palette (Neither of the lefties would be allowed to equip them, because they'd always use the arrow/unarmed palette and that would be lame). It would let you create FF2/FF5-style bows where you don't need to worry about arrows. I never pursued the possibility though, I like the way FF4's bows and arrows work a lot more and it would involve tracking down quite a few things in the code (Which weapons are equipped like bows and arrows, whatever makes arrows give you 10 when you find/steal them, etc.).
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Deathlike2

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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 09:06:12 PM »
I'm not sure we're on the same wavelength... I think I know what you're saying, but I think there's some tangent you're going on...

The "weapon" options for a recessive hand will always be a shield or bow or arrow (where shields cannot be combined with a bow and arrow).

I'm talking about when you equip either a bow or arrow in either hand, you expose the "fists" attack power property (1 attack power, 50% hit rate).

Although, if you are thinking of revamping Bows+Arrows to an FF5 style type of thing, that would be interesting, but you should enforce 2-handedness.. though I wonder how that'll work out... because those weapons generally require dominant hands... I'm not sure if there are additional checks with those weapons to begin with..

The only thing worth noting that JCE's hack allowed for Bows+Arrows for all and IIRC that Bows+Arrows did not get penalized when equipped either way.. Yang's attack power is fixed, so that allows for some weapon properties to prosper (race/elemental/status modifers) regardless of power.
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2008, 09:30:37 AM »
I completely forgot about testing this. :isuck:

Double recessive characters are interesting because...they're not ambidextrous. They can only equip one shield at a time, in either hand in via the equip menu. They can equip bows and arrows just fine. The most shocking thing I found is that they're treated just like a left-handed character in battle, and can even equip weapons. The only difference between them and a normal lefty is that they have their own strings for which hands can be equipped, blank by default because FF2us only lists the dominate hand, but you can easy add whatever text you want and it'll display.

As for my bow idea, it worked as I expected but had an unforeseen side effect - it makes characters with weapons in their left hand use the unarmed animation instead of their weapon animation. I'm not sure why this is but I can guess, when you only have a shield equipped the game defaults to using the unarmed animation, since the unarmed animation is now an arrow it can't use it unless you have a bow equipped, so it loads another (hardcoded, I'm guessing) punching animation to use instead. Either this check overrides the check for a weapon in the left hand or it just overrides the animation used.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 09:40:18 AM by Dragonsbrethren »
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Deathlike2

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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2008, 07:36:39 PM »
Quote from: Dragonsbrethren on July 24, 2008, 09:30:37 AM
I completely forgot about testing this. :isuck:

All we need is a "Noooo" icon, even though the picture is nice, but eh not quicky enough for me...  :tongue:

Quote
Double recessive characters are interesting because...they're not ambidextrous. They can only equip one shield at a time, in either hand in via the equip menu. They can equip bows and arrows just fine. The most shocking thing I found is that they're treated just like a left-handed character in battle, and can even equip weapons. The only difference between them and a normal lefty is that they have their own strings for which hands can be equipped, blank by default because FF2us only lists the dominate hand, but you can easy add whatever text you want and it'll display.

Some of this isn't shocking.. but I'm willing to bet it's more like the check for the back row bit for ambedextrous characters... it only check the right hand. It's convienent as a bit-wise specific operation.

Quote
As for my bow idea, it worked as I expected but had an unforeseen side effect - it makes characters with weapons in their left hand use the unarmed animation instead of their weapon animation. I'm not sure why this is but I can guess, when you only have a shield equipped the game defaults to using the unarmed animation, since the unarmed animation is now an arrow it can't use it unless you have a bow equipped, so it loads another (hardcoded, I'm guessing) punching animation to use instead. Either this check overrides the check for a weapon in the left hand or it just overrides the animation used.

What's the handedness are you testing against? The only thing that comes to mind is the earlier comment.
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2008, 02:24:28 AM »
Quote from: Deathlike2 on July 24, 2008, 07:36:39 PM
What's the handedness are you testing against? The only thing that comes to mind is the earlier comment.

I tested them all. Characters with the weapon in their right hand work fine, characters with it in their left do not do not, unless the weapon in their left hand is a bow of course. Ambidextrous characters work fine as long as there's a weapon in their right.

:edit:

Clarified what I meant a bit.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 03:19:19 AM by Dragonsbrethren »
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Deathlike2

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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2008, 12:49:43 PM »
How are bows and arrows treated on an ambidexterous recessive guy? I found it interesting when Edge was equipped with a bow+arrow (in JCE's hack) that he was penalized... since the Bow went to the dominant hand. I wonder if opposite is true (since the check seems to rely on what hand the Bow is on).
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2008, 09:07:12 PM »
Ambidextrous recessive characters are treated just like left-handed characters in battle.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2008, 09:10:55 PM »
I meant, in terms of attack power. Is the character penalized or not (note that I'm talking about Bows+Arrows)?
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2008, 09:52:50 PM »
In terms of the actual attack, yes, exactly like a left handed character would be. If you mean the number on the equipment/status screen I'm not sure, I'd need to check.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2008, 10:03:37 PM »
Quote from: Deathlike2 on November 12, 2008, 09:10:55 PM
I meant, in terms of attack power. Is the character penalized or not (note that I'm talking about Bows+Arrows)?

Reread bold.

Let me rephrase what I said earlier.

In JCE's hack, he allows bows+arrows to be equipped on Edge. This works fine, except that in either order the Bow+Arrow is placed, Edge is penalized. This suggests that the check IMO is to check if the Bow is in a dominant hand. If that is the case, apply the attack penalty for Bows.

What I'm asking here is I'm wondering what the case happens to be when both hands are recessive. My guess is that the attack penalty for Bows is not applied since the check is for the Bow, which happens to be placed in either recessive hand.
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Re: Ambidextrous characters and shields
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2008, 10:21:20 PM »
 There is no way to check what happens when both hands are recessive because it's impossible to have two recessive hands in battle, they're treated like a left-handed character, unlike in the menu. These characters are no different than any other left-handed character in battle. If you assign weapons to him he'll be able to equip them in his left hand in battle. If you equip the bow in his left hand he will get a penalty, because that is a left-handed character's dominant hand.
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