Library of the Ancients => Final Fantasy IV Research & Development => Topic started by: Deathlike2 on December 07, 2007, 05:25:36 PM
Title: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 07, 2007, 05:25:36 PM
I know Arrows and Boomerangs fall into this catagory (though I kinda wonder why the Dwarf Axe and Harps aren't)... they are considered an "elemental", yes?
It makes me wish there was an actual Aero spell (maybe the series itself perhaps)...
Stupid properties make it worse for Ice Arrows against the Arachne. :bah: :lame:
On the same thought, apparently having two enemy properties as weaknesses don't increase the multiplier further (see Screamer against Thunder+Charm Claw)...
I've come to the conclusion only one elemental multiplier can be combined with one enemy type multiplier (best example is the Stone Golem from the Tower of Babil... Charm+IceClaw for max punishment)...
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 10, 2007, 04:57:51 PM
Anyone with comments?
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 10, 2007, 05:38:34 PM
That all sounds right.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 10, 2007, 05:54:51 PM
So, there are 6 elementals total then?
Fire, Ice, Lightning, Holy, Darkness, Aerial (unless you have a better name for it)
As an aside, it is interesting how you can test elementals via Yang, and enemy "types" with Rosa (via the Elven Bow, although the Artemis Bow doesn't really have many big Ghoul targets to fight against... :bah:)
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: I.S.T. on December 10, 2007, 06:09:22 PM
It's been a long time since i played FF4, but how can you test with Yang?
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 10, 2007, 06:13:37 PM
Fire, Ice, Lightning, Holy, Darkness, Aerial (unless you have a better name for it)
I prefer to call the element Dark since the status is Darkness and the two are completely unrelated to one another. Elements and status effects are actually stored together, so technically you could call every status effect an element as well, but I think the game does treat them differently. Drain is also an element/status effect, toggling it on armor gives you the absorb property. I've never tested if toggling the immune property on a weapon does anything or not, that's also an element.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 10, 2007, 07:32:49 PM
It's been a long time since i played FF4, but how can you test with Yang?
I used it in a different example in a different thread. Consider the Flamedog (or whatever it is called). If you attack with the Fireclaw, you will do half damage... if you attack with the Iceclaw you will do 4x damage (super vulnerable instead of "just vulnerable"). If you combine both claws on Yang, the Iceclaw will take precedence over the Fireclaw.
Fire, Ice, Lightning, Holy, Darkness, Aerial (unless you have a better name for it)
I prefer to call the element Dark since the status is Darkness and the two are completely unrelated to one another. Elements and status effects are actually stored together, so technically you could call every status effect an element as well, but I think the game does treat them differently. Drain is also an element/status effect, toggling it on armor gives you the absorb property. I've never tested if toggling the immune property on a weapon does anything or not, that's also an element.
Hmm.. I wonder what the best classification should be called for Drain.. it seems more like a monster type multiplier than anything.. elemental has completely different properties as I was describing in a different thread... it seems less of a status effect (not that it couldn't be).. if Drain was assigned to a weapon for Edge or a Bow/Arrow combo, maybe I could make a better guess. Status effect usually implies a message popping up when the target is successfully inflicted by the attack....
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 10, 2007, 08:08:31 PM
Ok, after some testing, I've determined Drain to be more of an enemy type modifier.. since the damage dealt to undead and flans is 4x... which means enemy type modifiers are always 4x (this didn't occur to me initially).
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 10, 2007, 08:15:48 PM
How are you testing Drain on undead? If you're using one of the Drain weapons you should note that they're all set to do 4x damage to undead, that's what's causing the extra damage. The drain element just tells the game to make that weapon act like drain, an enemy can't be set to be weak against it.
Edit: Actually, they may be able to. The enemies can be weak to Fire, Ice, Lightning, Dark, Holy, Aerial, Unknown, and Weak. The Unknown happens to be in the same place Drain is in the list of weapon elements, so it's possible that it is indeed a Drain weakness that they never bothered giving to any monsters. I'm going to test that right now.
Edit 2: It definitely is a drain weakness, Kain was doing between 150-300 damage on an unchanged FlameDog with his Drain Lance. After giving it the unknown weakness he was doing between 500-1000. :whoa:
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 10, 2007, 08:44:07 PM
How are you testing Drain on undead? If you're using one of the Drain weapons you should note that they're all set to do 4x damage to undead, that's what's causing the extra damage. The drain element just tells the game to make that weapon act like drain, an enemy can't be set to be weak against it.
I'm talking about the weapons only. Magic obviously doesn't work against such multipliers...
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Edit: Actually, they may be able to. The enemies can be weak to Fire, Ice, Lightning, Dark, Holy, Aerial, Unknown, and Weak. The Unknown happens to be in the same place Drain is in the list of weapon elements, so it's possible that it is indeed a Drain weakness that they never bothered giving to any monsters. I'm going to test that right now.
Weak as in the spell (FF2 name for "Tornado" or whatever)?
Well, I think there would be a "special" check for undead in regards to Drain weaponry/spells in general.. but it being an elemental would probably be an easier check against spells, whereas a weapon check is easier against enemy type modifiers...
Remember that enemy weakness or modifier take precedence over enemy resistance/absorb.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 10, 2007, 08:46:50 PM
Edit 2: It definitely is a drain weakness, Kain was doing between 150-300 damage on an unchanged FlameDog with his Drain Lance. After giving it the unknown weakness he was doing between 500-1000. :whoa:
See my earlier post... doesn't that all just make sense now? :wink:
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 10, 2007, 08:50:41 PM
Well, I think there would be a "special" check for undead in regards to Drain weaponry/spells in general.. but it being an elemental would probably be an easier check against spells, whereas a weapon check is easier against enemy type modifiers...
Remember that enemy weakness or modifier take precedence over enemy resistance/absorb.
Setting a monster's race to undead is all that is needed to "reverse" drain.
See my earlier post... doesn't that all just make sense now? :wink:
Not really, as this weakness is never normally used. Unless I'm missing what you're trying to say here.
Never mind then. Shouldn't you try this weakness thing against something other than a Flamedog? The reason I say this is because the Flamedog takes 4x damage from Ice and I'm not exactly sure how elemental data is stored.. but it would have to cover none/resistance/absorb/weak(x2)/weak(x4) or something along those lines...
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 10, 2007, 10:00:43 PM
The FlameDog having another weakness wouldn't make any difference, you could easily set it to have all eight weaknesses and as long as the weapon only has one of those elements it won't make any difference. The Drain Lance is Aerial and Drain elemental but the FlameDog is only weak to Ice and Drain, so the result is valid. I also did a test on a HugeCell but the damage variance was too great for a conclusive result.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 10, 2007, 10:40:35 PM
Damage variance is too high for a weapon such as the Drain Spear.. though I suspect it has more to do with hit rate than anything. Try the Drain Sword instead since it has a better hit rate, but less damage...
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Pinkpuff on December 11, 2007, 05:45:41 AM
I find it interesting that Kain's spears are Air-elemental as well. I always thought it was just his Jump attack that was Air but apparently it's his weapons.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 11, 2007, 08:52:44 AM
Kain's Spears have always been "Air" elemental.. only the overpowered Abel's Lance (FF4A ultimate weapon for Kain) is not one of them.. which is a bug to me.
Why do you think Kain has an early edge against the Eagles, Floateyes, and Sandmoths? :tongue:
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Pinkpuff on December 11, 2007, 11:02:55 AM
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Why do you think Kain has an early edge against the Eagles, Floateyes, and Sandmoths?
I know now it's because spears are Air-elemental. But back in the day, I used to just jump all the time so I thought it was Jump that was an air attack, since that makes sense. Then I discovered that he still did crazy damage to them with normal attacks, meaning it was the weapon, not the Jump attack, which to me makes no sense. Why would a spear be air-elemental? I mean it makes sense for the "Wind" spear but every spear? Weird.
Anyway, the drain spear isn't Air either I don't think.
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Deathlike2 on December 11, 2007, 11:30:41 AM
Why do you think Kain has an early edge against the Eagles, Floateyes, and Sandmoths?
I know now it's because spears are Air-elemental. But back in the day, I used to just jump all the time so I thought it was Jump that was an air attack, since that makes sense. Then I discovered that he still did crazy damage to them with normal attacks, meaning it was the weapon, not the Jump attack, which to me makes no sense. Why would a spear be air-elemental? I mean it makes sense for the "Wind" spear but every spear? Weird.
Hangtime. :wink:
Go figure, that's the only real way that Kain isn't totally outclassed by Cecil for regular attacks (Jump after all is a delayed 2x attack, then again Yang's Power Attack is superior for different reasons)... then again, the Dragoon (Dragon/Wyvern) Spear is already mindblowingly powerful.
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Anyway, the drain spear isn't Air either I don't think.
After doing some quick testing, that sounds about right... hmmm
Title: Re: FF2/4/4A Projectiles
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on December 11, 2007, 08:11:10 PM
I know now it's because spears are Air-elemental. But back in the day, I used to just jump all the time so I thought it was Jump that was an air attack, since that makes sense. Then I discovered that he still did crazy damage to them with normal attacks, meaning it was the weapon, not the Jump attack, which to me makes no sense. Why would a spear be air-elemental? I mean it makes sense for the "Wind" spear but every spear? Weird.
The element isn't supposed to be air, it's just something that aerial monsters are weak against. My guess is this has something to do with the fact that in "real life" spears are designed so they can be thrown, throwing a spear at a flying target would work a lot better than trying to slash at them with a sword.