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Author Topic: Odin Summon  (Read 4711 times)

Deathlike2

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Odin Summon
« on: February 04, 2008, 05:09:17 AM »
Although Odin won't work on enemies with the boss bit, what factors power this spell?

I would think it would be powered by Wisdom... or is it powered by level... or both?
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2008, 06:58:03 AM »
I have no idea, Odin has always been a mystery to me. His annoying disappearing is a part of his spell animation and not a part of his effect, if you make him a normal damaging spell he will still do damage regardless of whether he shows up or not.

Deathlike2

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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2008, 01:46:27 PM »
It would help if you give me the levels of the Lunar Subterrain monsters that don't have the boss bit in FF2 US and I'll see which is more of a factor.
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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2008, 02:21:37 PM »
Let's see...

  • D.Bone - 79
  • D.Fossil - 79
  • Ging-Ryu - 97
  • Kary - 61
  • King-Ryu - 97
  • PinkPuff - 96
  • RedGiant - 97
  • Warlock - 71

Lenophis

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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2008, 02:42:45 PM »
I think the common factor is that if any monster in the formation is immune to instant death, Odin will always fail. Try finding a battle with one monster immune to instant death, and another not. Try summoning Odin when both are alive, and the one immune to instant death is dead. See what happens.

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Deathlike2

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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2008, 03:06:37 PM »
I think the common factor is that if any monster in the formation is immune to instant death, Odin will always fail. Try finding a battle with one monster immune to instant death, and another not. Try summoning Odin when both are alive, and the one immune to instant death is dead. See what happens.

No, I had that notion before looking into it, but I had no issue killing those D.Fossils.

Let's see...

  • D.Bone - 79
  • D.Fossil - 79
  • Ging-Ryu - 97
  • Kary - 61
  • King-Ryu - 97
  • PinkPuff - 96
  • RedGiant - 97
  • Warlock - 71

Well, I'm testing Rydia @ level 99, and I've concluded that it leans towards Rydia's level than any other stat. I neutered her Wisdom with the Cursed Ring/Minerva/Dragon Whip combo, and she was equally as effective.

The core issue with most multitargeted attacks like Break/Stone is how the game determines the "all hit or all miss" factor.

Edit: Entroper, the last ??? in the monsters table is level.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2008, 03:50:38 PM by Deathlike2 »
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JCE3000GT

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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2008, 06:03:02 PM »
I think the common factor is that if any monster in the formation is immune to instant death, Odin will always fail. Try finding a battle with one monster immune to instant death, and another not. Try summoning Odin when both are alive, and the one immune to instant death is dead. See what happens.

I've always believed if any monster is immune to death it will automatically trigger a fail. 

Deathlike2

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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2008, 06:20:53 PM »
I think the common factor is that if any monster in the formation is immune to instant death, Odin will always fail. Try finding a battle with one monster immune to instant death, and another not. Try summoning Odin when both are alive, and the one immune to instant death is dead. See what happens.

I've always believed if any monster is immune to death it will automatically trigger a fail. 

Well, there are some simple documented behaviors/rules that I should write a separate post about (feel free to split this thread if neccessary).

1) If you make a multi-status attack (a physical attack+statuses or a special attack) such as Bad Breath (Marlboro), protection against one status that Bad Breath tries to inflict means you are immune to the entire attack.

For the next rule, it depends if you are using the Advance version or the SNES version.
2A = FF4A, 2B = FF4 SNES

2A) if you make a multitargeted status attack such as Piggy, it doesn't matter if it is successful on every target, even if one is immune.

2B) If you make a multitargeted status attack such as Piggy, it has to be successful on every target, even if one character is immune to the status, otherwise it will fail. This is why you can see certain lunar overworld formations like those squidish monsters can't be petrified, but the rest that are not immune (the puddings, bomb, and the virus monsters) die promptly.


Simple rules eh?... unless you want it refined...

Odin follows rule 2B, but it isn't a death status attack at all...
« Last Edit: February 04, 2008, 06:33:46 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Pinkpuff

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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2008, 05:54:20 AM »
Quote
PinkPuff - 96

Woo-hoo I'm level 96!

Quote
2A) if you make a multitargeted status attack such as Piggy, it doesn't matter if it is successful on every target, even if one is immune.

2B) If you make a multitargeted status attack such as Piggy, it has to be successful on every target, even if one character is immune to the status, otherwise it will fail. This is why you can see certain lunar overworld formations like those squidish monsters can't be petrified, but the rest that are not immune (the puddings, bomb, and the virus monsters) die promptly.

I understand rule 1 but these other rules are worded kind of oddly so let me see if I understand what you're saying...

In FF4A, if you split a status-infliction spell among, say, a party of three enemies, one of which resists the status and the other two do not, the spell will not work on any of the targets, even the ones who have no resistance.

In FF4SNES, if you split a status-infliction spell among the same party of three enemies, the one who resists the status will not be affected but the other two might be.

And you're saying that Odin follows the second rule, so he could kill some enemies and leave others alive in the same monster group?
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Deathlike2

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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2008, 06:13:25 AM »
Quote
PinkPuff - 96

Woo-hoo I'm level 96!

Quote
2A) if you make a multitargeted status attack such as Piggy, it doesn't matter if it is successful on every target, even if one is immune.

2B) If you make a multitargeted status attack such as Piggy, it has to be successful on every target, even if one character is immune to the status, otherwise it will fail. This is why you can see certain lunar overworld formations like those squidish monsters can't be petrified, but the rest that are not immune (the puddings, bomb, and the virus monsters) die promptly.

I understand rule 1 but these other rules are worded kind of oddly so let me see if I understand what you're saying...

In FF4A, if you split a status-infliction spell among, say, a party of three enemies, one of which resists the status and the other two do not, the spell will not work on any of the targets, even the ones who have no resistance.

Nononono.

If a status infliction spell is applied among all targets regardless of whether or not any of the targets are resistant, the success/failure of the spell is applied between each target. Let's say you have two monsters that are of the same type. If they can be changed into Mini status, it is possible that one of them will be changed, and not the other. It doesn't matter at all if a Mini resistant monster is added to this group.

Quote
In FF4SNES, if you split a status-infliction spell among the same party of three enemies, the one who resists the status will not be affected but the other two might be.

Nononononono.

If a status infliction spell is applied among all targets, regardless of whether or not any of the targets are resistant, success of the spell requires that the spell be successful against all targets.

Using the same Mini example, all the targets have to be successfully hit, even if you include a Mini resistant monster in the group. It is an all or nothing proposition.

Quote
And you're saying that Odin follows the second rule, so he could kill some enemies and leave others alive in the same monster group?

Nononononono. Odin is an all or nothing proposition.
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Pinkpuff

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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2008, 06:35:31 AM »
So I had them backwards then. In FF4A, it could succeed on some and fail on others while in FF4SNES it has to succeed on everyone in order to succeed at all (meaning if one of the monsters is resistant the spell fails on the group). Odin's effect fails if it fails on any of the targets.

(P.S. One "no" is enough to get the point)
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Deathlike2

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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2008, 06:40:13 AM »
So I had them backwards then. In FF4A, it could succeed on some and fail on others while in FF4SNES it has to succeed on everyone in order to succeed at all (meaning if one of the monsters is resistant the spell fails on the group). Odin's effect fails if it fails on any of the targets.

(P.S. One "no" is enough to get the point)

No!

The test has to succeed on every enemy in FF4SNES.

some psuedocode for the sake of argument
FF4A
for all targets
 if (successful in the test for one target), apply status effect
FF4SNES
for all targets
 if (successful in the test for one target, and don't check for status resistance), keep checking
 else return (failure on all targets)
apply status effect on all targets that are not immune to status effect
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 06:54:05 AM by Deathlike2 »
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Pinkpuff

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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2008, 06:53:13 AM »
Ok, so in FF4SNES, "the test succeeding" is a different concept from "the status being inflicted". The test could succeed on a monster resistant to the status, but it will still not get the status. It just means that it will not prevent non-immune monsters from receiving the status.

Have I got it right this time?
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Deathlike2

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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2008, 06:57:53 AM »
Ok, so in FF4SNES, "the test succeeding" is a different concept from "the status being inflicted". The test could succeed on a monster resistant to the status, but it will still not get the status. It just means that it will not prevent non-immune monsters from receiving the status.

Have I got it right this time?

Yes, although I could be wrong that the target that's immune is even being checked against (it could be skipped altogether).

Regardless, the more targets to check against, the chance of failure increases.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Odin Summon
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2008, 08:10:38 PM »
It is worth pointing out that this behavior is inconsistant with the Slumber Sword (in FF4 SNES). The behave is changed/fixed in FF4A.
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