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Author Topic: Enuo  (Read 1193 times)

Squall

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Enuo
« on: June 28, 2017, 03:40:20 AM »
Hey guys, its been a while since I wanted to make a video of an interesting fight against Enuo. I couldn't think of anything worth to be shown for a while, but after some conversations with Praetarius5018 over FF5 engine, finally the inspiration came:
https://youtu.be/dnMVNZqiP64

These is not the best strategy I have. Originally I had to cast Quick and do 2 Goblin Punches per char, but when I made a video, it took like 3 minutes. I saw that simple Goblin Punch is faster but couldn't believe it shortened the video by 1/3 (up to 2 minutes).

Please comment on what your initial reaction is, any suggestions how to speed it up, what other abilities can do a dissent damage,...

P.S. A fight to be interesting it must be low level or short (in time or number of turns) or with solid strategy.
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samurai goroh

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2017, 04:35:06 PM »
If I were to use Goblin Punch, I would had set the team to level 97 for a guaranteed 9999 hit, also I would had set Mimic instead since you're just repeating the same action (something that the iOS/PC version has in favor though).

Now if I had to look for the fastest Kill, then I would certainly perform a TAS :P (first thing I have in mind is to use X-Fight while avoiding the glitches)
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13375K31C43R

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 06:46:49 PM »
Four Mimics, Dualcast-Summon Bahamut twice, Mimic chain 'til he dies.

That's how I beat Neo-Exdeath too.
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Squall

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2017, 03:29:11 AM »
Quote
If I were to use Goblin Punch, I would had set the team to level 97 for a guaranteed 9999 hit
That was my first thought. But even with 9999 you will need 6+1 hit to kill an instance of Enuo. So for 7 hits we need average of 8.5k per hit, so there is really no need for that.

Quote
also I would had set Mimic instead since you're just repeating the same action
Mimic is poor choice for this fight. Mainly because they can't wear Ribbon. And for this fight you really need one because many of his attacks/counter will disable unprotected character. I wear Ribbon + Angel ring, to protect against all of his attacks except Grand Cross ofc, but if we kill him fast, no Grand Cross :D
Also Mimic is not good job for Physical damage like Goblin Punch since they can equip only Knife, Rod, Staff.

Quote
Four Mimics, Dualcast-Summon Bahamut twice, Mimic chain 'til he dies.
Thats interesting idea. Unfortunately  Bahamut isn't the best summon in FF5 (damage wise). It is so weak that even Fire/Ice/Light-ga are better (unless there is immunity). Anyway Summons have long animation and make videos long. Even if I manage to pull 8.5k with Summon the fight will take 3-4 mins, not 2 :)
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samurai goroh

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2017, 10:38:25 AM »
While the number of hits doesn't change, you have to remember that the animation of the Goblin Punch is not that fast. So if you start with a normal hit and then use Goblin Punch, it be faster in real-time. I would even try to open with X-Fight and get a luck start saving turns.

If you're interested, I could give it a try on the GBA and elaborate a TAS to see how fast I could finish him.
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Praetarius5018

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2017, 03:47:15 AM »
Design wise Enuo always reminds me of those lazy rpgmaker bosses, max stats, immune to everything.
Any way to defeat him without just brute force that isn't the solve-all of dragon power mix + L5 death?
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Squall

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2017, 02:58:20 AM »
Quote from: samurai goroh on July 01, 2017, 10:38:25 AM
While the number of hits doesn't change, you have to remember that the animation of the Goblin Punch is not that fast. So if you start with a normal hit and then use Goblin Punch, it be faster in real-time. I would even try to open with X-Fight and get a luck start saving turns.

If you're interested, I could give it a try on the GBA and elaborate a TAS to see how fast I could finish him.
There are problems with normal hits:
- Back Row dmg is half (to protect from Dimension Zero)
- Evasion 20%. That's quite a lot - even single miss will mean longer fight
- Defense 100. That mean that only Ultima can do around 5k, all of the rest will do 2k or less, so total max dmg of 1 char will be less then 7k (if you don't miss), while all of the rest will go around 4k, which is far away from desired 8.5k

Rapid Fire (X-fight): Risky business - this fight has 2 extra invincible/untargeting participants. In the second part they are not present, but he starts with protect which half the damage.

Anyway, YES I would love to see your suggestion on video samurai goroh. Even if you don't mind one with average luck and one with luck smiles on you :)

P.S. Did you guys see the unique Dimension Zero? You will not see it anywhere else.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 05:11:06 AM by Squall »
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noisecross

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2017, 07:43:44 AM »
Quote from: Praetarius5018 on July 02, 2017, 03:47:15 AM
Design wise Enuo always reminds me of those lazy rpgmaker bosses, max stats, immune to everything.
Very true. But that kind of lazy artificially-difficulted bosses are not exclusive from amateur RPGMaker users.
Penance from FFX is an archetype of max-stated-inmune-to-everything-boss. You can only beat it with high stated characters or using a kill-everything technique... such a disappointing opponent.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 10:40:10 AM by noisecross »
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Praetarius5018

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2017, 11:54:48 AM »
Quote from: noisecross on July 03, 2017, 07:43:44 AM
Quote from: Praetarius5018 on July 02, 2017, 03:47:15 AM
Design wise Enuo always reminds me of those lazy rpgmaker bosses, max stats, immune to everything.
Very true. But that kind of lazy artificially-difficulted bosses are not exclusive from amateur RPGMaker users.
Penance from FFX is an archetype of max-stated-inmune-to-everything-boss. You can only beat it with high stated characters or using a kill-everything technique... such a disappointing opponent.
I've no statistics but certainly way too many bosses everywhere.
RPGmaker has just the most obvious ones - especially with the games that you can load in the maker and check yourself.




on topic:
how about without directly attacking him?
reflect on party + multitarget Firaga on party comes to mind
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Squall

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2017, 03:37:00 AM »
Quote from: noisecross on July 03, 2017, 07:43:44 AM
Quote from: Praetarius5018 on July 02, 2017, 03:47:15 AM
Design wise Enuo always reminds me of those lazy rpgmaker bosses, max stats, immune to everything.
Very true. But that kind of lazy artificially-difficulted bosses are not exclusive from amateur RPGMaker users.
It is a sad thing to see smart people talking nonsense  :eek:

How on earth Enuo has max stats or immune to everything???
  • Defense stats are high, but far from god-like. Compare to Omega, Omega 2, Bahamut,.. he is like kitten. Compare to non boss: Lower then Skull Eater and close to Jackanapes, Sea Ibis
  • Magical offense stats - average comparable to other bosses, much lower then some of the regular mobs like Desertpede, Alchymia ...
  • Physical offense stats - very high but not the highest (lower then Neo Shinryu)
  • Zero elemental resistance - no immunity, no absorption
So where exactly is that max stats and immune to everything nonsense??? I know playing against him may seems that way, because you can hardly hit him hard, but thats because of clever design not max-all!
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Praetarius5018

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2017, 11:01:02 AM »
Wait, wait, wait, wait!
I said he *reminds* me of those bosses, not that he is exactly like those!

For me that stems probably from the fact that he is just straight forward; (almost) every other boss in FF5 has something to them, a gimmick or trick or weakness or anything that allows the player - but not forces them - to take alternate alternate strategies compared to just deal damage, heal and pray he runs out of HP before you do.
I do count simple elemental weaknesses here but not in every game because here having access to element X is only a choice but not a guarantee thanks to the job system.
A boss is weak to wind but you have no !Blue to make use of that? tough it out or switch party jobs/abilities!
In most other games you have fixed characters/classes/jobs/skills so you either have it or you don't, no real "choice" for the player.

Enuo? nothing I can see. Status effects are out and all elements are equal so just take the strongest moves and be done.
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samurai goroh

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2017, 09:14:25 PM »
There's quite some room for optimizations since it was just a mock-up, but it's a general idea of how quickly Enuo can be taken down with "some" luck.
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Squall

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2017, 03:15:02 AM »
Woah samurai goroh, if you can pull that luck in the real life you should be a million-er now :D

If I recall math well, a chance for Sword Dance is 50%. The chance for pulling 5 Sword Dances in a row is like 3.125%. If we add the 2 normal hit with 20% chance to miss ... That gives you 2% chance to pull that sequence.
If we add to that counters in the second phase ... RapidFire gets 2 counters. I don't remember but I think SwordDance with 2 weapons get 2 counters too. So from 6 counters you got 1 Hurricane and 1 Danse Macabre (to a char that have already used his turn). Well I don't know how this is calculated in math, but the chance to pull all of that is probably under 1% :)

Are you doing RNG manipulations? I notice some letters pops-up and also you delay your input from time to time ...
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noisecross

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2017, 05:33:16 AM »
Quote from: Squall on July 04, 2017, 03:37:00 AM
Quote from: noisecross on July 03, 2017, 07:43:44 AM
Quote from: Praetarius5018 on July 02, 2017, 03:47:15 AM
Design wise Enuo always reminds me of those lazy rpgmaker bosses, max stats, immune to everything.
Very true. But that kind of lazy artificially-difficulted bosses are not exclusive from amateur RPGMaker users.
It is a sad thing to see smart people talking nonsense  :eek:

Hahaha, don't get it wrong. It's a fact the rpgmaker (and any other platform) bosses with max stats and immune-to-(almost)-everything are lazy and boring.
It's also a fact than Penance from FFX is an archetype of these kind of lazy bosses. You can add Proto-Babil from FFIV-DS and sure you can say a lot more.
Boss design must be smarter than that.

Anywat, let's finish this :offtopic:
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samurai goroh

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Re: Enuo
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2017, 04:36:04 PM »
Quote from: Squall on July 05, 2017, 03:15:02 AM
Are you doing RNG manipulations? I notice some letters pops-up and also you delay your input from time to time ...
I did some RNG manupulation but not an exhaustive one, just what first worked ok (since I'm thinking on improving it with the feedback I got, I'll likely give it another try tonight and make a cleaner/faster kill).

It would seem that Enuo's 2nd phase only counters 2/3 of the time, which means I should be able to find a seed that lets me get Sword Dances while not getting countered (which BTW, since I had Hermes Rings, it was just 1/4 chances to proc).

Something I noticed from the GBA is that not every frame you can send input, and that's bothersome while doing my TAS (unlike the SNES where you don't have this issue). Around every 3rd frame or so the input doesn't go thru.


EDIT
Take 2!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 07:05:37 PM by samurai goroh »
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