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Deathlike2

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FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« on: May 30, 2008, 04:17:12 PM »
I hadn't gotten around to writing this, but if anyone have considered improving 2-Handed Weapons (particularly Axes), then here are some ideas you may want to play with.

Note: I will use the axe as a reference, for the sake of pointing out that the Poison and Rune Axe suck, relatively speaking.


1) Increase defense - Make it so that say 1/8 of the axe's attack power increases the defense of the character. This tends to increase the defense power of the character enough to take less damage, but doesn't help if you go full heavy armor (think of Kain or Cid, since Cecil has lots of Wizard armor alternatives). The defensive impact is minimal late game though since the defense multiplier and evade become more important. Compared to shields, shields provide mostly evade than defense, so that's the unique swap there. Note that the strongest possible axe you can create will increase up to 31 defense, which does have a nice impact there (it's good if you don't plan or don't want to use defensive race properties in the armor). You will still be taking damage though...

Edit: Changed 1/4 to 1/8 instead.

2) Increase evade - Make it so that say 1/4 of the axe's hit rate increases the evade of the character. This helps a lot when shields are the greatest factors in increasing defense via evade. The highest you can get here is 24% (or maybe more, but someone would have to make this code first to test it out)), which is far less than the best shield in this game (FF4, not FF4A) can provide (40% evade for the Crystal Shield), but still not be that overpowering. Note that the hit rate does have to be reasonably high or it will suck. The Hand Axe is not a good weapon if that was available when you have Cid, only because its pathetic hit rate will do below average damage for Cid vs his very accurate hammers. Trading evade for an underpowered Cid is a terrible option IMO. If the evade bonus can go up to 63% evade, there can be problem balancing this...

3) Increase defense multiplier... - Make it so that the axe is classified as a shield, so the defensive multiplier bonus of level/16 is applied. This is a bit more effective than increasing defense, although it has the same evade constraint problem. I've found that the Heroine Robe/Minerva Bustier has gives Rosa+Rydia near physical immunity in the Lunar Subterrain late game (particularly if you are stat boosting post level 70). Even if they have a high defense multiplier, it doesn't counter the low evade.. which is what the Heroine Robe provides (40% evade is not something to scoff at). This seems like a safer/the safest bet to change...

Here's a brief review/overview of having a 2 handed weapon vs a weapon+shield combo...

1) Lowered defense - A shield provides some semblence of defense, but not a lot in comparison to the other details.

2) No shield multiplier bonus - this is what the shield thrives on to be very useful. In the late game, this becomes very huge in terms of bonuses.

3) Lowered evade - The evade is where the important calculations are at. Increasing this helps more significantly in conjunction with a high defense multiplier which has the greatest impact of reducing overall intake of damage.

Standard counters to fixing this (assuming you are not trying out my ideas)

1) Increase Agility - Since the defense multiplier is derived from this stat, increasing this will have the greatest impact... +15 to Agility will nearly guarantee a 2x defense multiplier bonus. However, this also makes the character go significantly faster, and that may need to be accounted for in monster balance. Note that late game that Agility can be maxed by most characters...

2) Increase Vitality/Stamina - Given that defense is worsened, you can attempt to compensate it here. The best case you can do this is to boost +15 to it and gain +7 or +8 defense, which isn't really significant, though it can counter only the defense loss that a shield provides (just not the multiplier or evade though). This has minimal impact overall, although most characters don't ever really max this stat out (except for Cecil) because Agility has a far greater impact in this game.

Ok, thoughts, constructive criticism, and mentioning stuff I didn't consider is appreciated.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 04:59:47 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2008, 07:02:33 AM »
I dunno... it seems to me like the idea behind having a two-handed weapon in the first place is that you're sacrificing defensive ability in exchange for more attack power.

If the extra damage from a two-handed weapon isn't enough to compensate for the lack of defense from not being able to wear a sheild, then in my opinion the damage needs to be increased until it is.
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Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2008, 01:26:47 PM »
I personally think the dropoff is too much for too little a damage boost (see how weak the Poison and Rune Axe is weak relative to everything else you have access to at the time). The best of the weaponry is the Avenger Sword for Kain, but he takes quite a bit more damage until post-level 70 stat boosts.
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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2008, 04:31:16 PM »
I'm not saying it's not.

I'm saying the solution to that problem is to increase the damage even more, not to increase the defense.
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Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2008, 05:55:12 PM »
Sure, but I don't think it solves the weapon usefulness dilemma. Let's say it was the strongest two-handed weapon possible, if you feel that the damage output doesn't quite balance out the damage intake, then it's not as useful at first place. I will cite JCE's hack as the best example.

[spoiler]I don't like the two handed Ragnarok..  the modified Behemoths have ultra high defense. The nasty Sorceror squid does insane damage. A front row weapon and shield combo does a better job, even if the damage output isn't that great.[/spoiler]

The point being is that I believe there needs to be an additional defensive property to counteract the loss of a shield. I liked this behavior in Phantasy Star 3 (some people hate it, but I don't) where the two handed sword was overall better than the two-knives setup or the knife+shield combo. The two handed sword gave a defense bonus that was decent... good enough to excel against the two-knives setup, but not superior to the knife+shield combo. The dual knives setup is handy for early parts of game where you don't need the concentrated damage.

In any case, the game/battle mechanics are different in this game (like there's no evade in PS3), but the fundamental idea is the same. I'd like to think the two handed weapon can/should compete with a sword+shield combo. I'm not saying we should create overpowered shields (Hero Shield) to remove the usefulness of a two handed weapon, but I can't stand to see Cid being undervalued because the bulk of his best weapon options and armor sets are conducive to having low or nonexistant evade.
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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2008, 05:58:59 PM »
Well, they solved this issue in a fairly simple way in FF4 DS...there are no two-handed weapons anymore.

Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2008, 06:10:06 PM »
Well, they solved this issue in a fairly simple way in FF4 DS...there are no two-handed weapons anymore.

Is that port primarily made by TOSE again? I'd swear they fuck up more often than not.
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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2008, 06:25:51 PM »
No, the DS version was developed by Matrix, same ones that did FF3 DS, but under the supervision of some of FF4's original developers. Scrapping them was probably a case of looking back on it and saying "If I did it now, I'd do it this way instead," for all I know there's a two-handed augment you can give to your characters or something.

Now, getting rid of left-handed characters, that was just laziness on the part of the modelers and/or coders, I'm sure, probably didn't feel like making left-handed animations for the weapons.

Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2008, 06:29:51 PM »
That sounds a little better than Tose that slopped something together and called it a port.
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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2008, 06:33:51 PM »
Yeah, the majority of the engine changes were for the better, I'll try to document more of them once it's out here. A little less than two months to go, preordered my copy the day it was available to at EB Games.

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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2008, 08:16:49 AM »
Quote
Sure, but I don't think it solves the weapon usefulness dilemma. Let's say it was the strongest two-handed weapon possible, if you feel that the damage output doesn't quite balance out the damage intake, then it's not as useful at first place.

So, wait... you're saying that the strongest two-handed weapon possible still can't do enough damage to balance out the lack of defense from not having a shield? Any shield? Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. Maybe in the very late game when the numbers start capping or something, but if that's the case it's a simple matter of just not making any two-handed weapons that are competing with one-handed weapons at that point. Give the two-handers out earlier in the game.
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Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2008, 11:45:35 AM »
Quote
Sure, but I don't think it solves the weapon usefulness dilemma. Let's say it was the strongest two-handed weapon possible, if you feel that the damage output doesn't quite balance out the damage intake, then it's not as useful at first place.

So, wait... you're saying that the strongest two-handed weapon possible still can't do enough damage to balance out the lack of defense from not having a shield? Any shield? Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. Maybe in the very late game when the numbers start capping or something, but if that's the case it's a simple matter of just not making any two-handed weapons that are competing with one-handed weapons at that point. Give the two-handers out earlier in the game.

I've done this testing already with JCE's hack. Some of the monsters have a greater attack multiplier than 12x (which is the highest possible defense multiplier w/o a shield). The difference is very noticable as the extra 6x defense multiplier via level bonuses when a shield is a equipped does actually make a difference (it's more effective late game of course, but important to taking damage in any part of the game).
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 01:37:21 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2008, 01:09:50 PM »
I like the idea of increasing defense stats, specifically agility, with 2-handed weapons.  Seeing the concept used in FF-12 on some weapons (poles and greatswords, among others) makes sense to me.

Again the discussion here provides fertile ideas for applying the concept to FF4...

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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2008, 10:15:55 AM »
Quote
Sure, but I don't think it solves the weapon usefulness dilemma. Let's say it was the strongest two-handed weapon possible, if you feel that the damage output doesn't quite balance out the damage intake, then it's not as useful at first place.

So, wait... you're saying that the strongest two-handed weapon possible still can't do enough damage to balance out the lack of defense from not having a shield? Any shield? Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. Maybe in the very late game when the numbers start capping or something, but if that's the case it's a simple matter of just not making any two-handed weapons that are competing with one-handed weapons at that point. Give the two-handers out earlier in the game.

I've done this testing already with JCE's hack. Some of the monsters have a greater attack multiplier than 12x (which is the highest possible defense multiplier w/o a shield). The difference is very noticable as the extra 6x defense multiplier via level bonuses when a shield is a equipped does actually make a difference (it's more effective late game of course, but important to taking damage in any part of the game).

If that's the case, then the monsters' attack power needs to be toned down and/or the shields need to be weaker. But I don't see how any reasonable person can argue that a two-handed weapon should give any more bonus to defense than a one-handed weapon. To me it's like saying that helmets should add to your attack power.
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Deathlike2

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Re: FF4 - Random Ideas on Improving 2-Handed Weapons
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2008, 01:00:49 PM »
Quote
Sure, but I don't think it solves the weapon usefulness dilemma. Let's say it was the strongest two-handed weapon possible, if you feel that the damage output doesn't quite balance out the damage intake, then it's not as useful at first place.

So, wait... you're saying that the strongest two-handed weapon possible still can't do enough damage to balance out the lack of defense from not having a shield? Any shield? Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. Maybe in the very late game when the numbers start capping or something, but if that's the case it's a simple matter of just not making any two-handed weapons that are competing with one-handed weapons at that point. Give the two-handers out earlier in the game.

I've done this testing already with JCE's hack. Some of the monsters have a greater attack multiplier than 12x (which is the highest possible defense multiplier w/o a shield). The difference is very noticable as the extra 6x defense multiplier via level bonuses when a shield is a equipped does actually make a difference (it's more effective late game of course, but important to taking damage in any part of the game).

If that's the case, then the monsters' attack power needs to be toned down and/or the shields need to be weaker. But I don't see how any reasonable person can argue that a two-handed weapon should give any more bonus to defense than a one-handed weapon. To me it's like saying that helmets should add to your attack power.

It's rather detrimental, but it's not obvious when you haven't tested this. It's my opinion. It is simply that's not really enough impact on damage (even increasing Agility+Strength) to increase this doesn't really help.

Here's an exaggerated example. Think of the Blood Spear. If we up this to 255 attack power, but have 0% hit rate, it becomes like the "Lucky Blade" in Lufia 2 where you have no realiable damage.

Also, here's another example.. Edge. Since he equips two blades, it's almost the same as having a two-handed weapon (but there's the attack power bonus that is doubled for having two weapons equipped). However, his defense does blow chunks for a good portion of the game even though he gains high agility and has high evade. Even though I've found ways to do the same for Cecil or Kain, the damage intake is pretty much Edge-level, and that's not a good thing (yes, they compensate for that with higher HP, but that's not a good counter either under all circumstances). Just imagine Cecil going through the Giant of Bab-il with a two handed weapon.. it would painfully resemble Edge.

I'm not saying to make two-handed weapons better than a weapon+shield combo.. I'm saying that the defense difference is far greater than you understand it to be.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 01:10:41 PM by Deathlike2 »
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