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Print Page - "Sing" Command
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Library of the Ancients => Final Fantasy IV Research & Development => Topic started by: Phoenix on February 12, 2008, 05:34:27 PM
Title: "Sing" Command
Post by: Phoenix on February 12, 2008, 05:34:27 PM
The US version of Sing has only three songs, right? (Charm, Silence, Sleep) Does this differ from FF4 or FF4A? One of them has Curse, I remember reading. Also, most guides say that the song differs depending on the harp, but for FF2us I can't tell a difference. The songs/chance of songs seemed the same.
As for other characters using the command, they need a harp equipped, but it seems to work fine. Cecil seemed less successful than Edward in the song effects -- the only stat he has that's lower than Edward is Will, so the chance of success might be related to that.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on February 12, 2008, 06:15:00 PM
I'd have to replay FF4 (which I will get around to doing soon) to see the differences... but I don't recall many differences in terms of Sing.
The song selection appears to differ depending on the harp... (probably in the selection ratio). The Dreamer Harp tends to sing lullibys whereas the Charm Harp tends to sing the Song of Confusion.
Once in a while, Edward does not sing of any particular effect.
Frog Song exists when Edward is a Frog himself.
Sing refuses to work while Edward is Silenced.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Pinkpuff on February 13, 2008, 07:01:51 AM
Isn't Frog Song the only song he can sing while a frog? That's all he's ever sung for me... not that I've frogged him that often...
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on February 13, 2008, 04:11:01 PM
Isn't Frog Song the only song he can sing while a frog? That's all he's ever sung for me... not that I've frogged him that often...
Yes.
This is one of the few commands that favor the harp attacks than the command itself.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on February 21, 2008, 05:07:24 AM
At some point, I will test the success rate of Song (other than failure to sing anything which is part of the randomness ofthe command). I believe Wisdom/Intelligence powers Frog and Sleep and Will/Spirit powers Charm and Silence.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on February 21, 2008, 04:34:53 PM
The spells are powered by Wisdom/Intellgence+Will/Spirit.
It requires something like 48-64 Will to make sure Charm/Mute always work. It requires something like 64-80 Wisdom to make sure Sleep/Frog always work.
The irony here is that Charm the White Magic spell always worked for me (well, minus those monsters that were resistant).
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Lenophis on February 21, 2008, 04:43:37 PM
Those look like really round numbers, now I'm wondering what the formula is. :hmm:
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on February 21, 2008, 04:48:11 PM
Those look like really round numbers, now I'm wondering what the formula is. :hmm:
The numbers are "round" because of a simple formula (documented by BSiron)..
Quote from: BSiron's Archaic Algo FAQ
BLACK: the effectiveness of black magic is dependent on the WIS stat of the caster. some spells have a base damage, which is then multiplied by the black magic multiplier, B, which is determined as B = [ WIS / 4 ] + 1.
WHITE: likewise for white magic, the power of the spell is dependent only on WILL. there is a similar white magic multiplier, W = [ WILL / 4 ] + 1.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Phoenix on March 31, 2008, 03:13:29 AM
Information from the Sing subroutine:
At least for FF2us, the harp equipped doesn’t affect which song is sung by Edward. In the subroutine, it gives an equal 25% chance to Silence, Charm, Sleep, and “Nothing happened.” The Song of Toad is 100% successful if in Toad state. However, since spells are still casted, once the song has been chosen the success rate of the spell is still its internal hit rate.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 31, 2008, 07:20:21 AM
Does it get the Slot1 spell hit rate bonus?
I figured that would be the case, I know for sure that increasing the Wis/Will of the character increases success (testing it by hacking Edward's stats) for the spells.
Does Edward's Sing command behave differently in FF4 PSX version? I heard it does a "curse" in one of the songs... I could be totally wrong. Dragonsbrethren?
The subroutine needs some improvement though (for it not to fail ever).
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on March 31, 2008, 03:27:56 PM
Does Edward's Sing command behave differently in FF4 PSX version? I heard it does a "curse" in one of the songs... I could be totally wrong. Dragonsbrethren?
I don't know, I don't use Sing, I've probably never even tried it in the PSX version.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Phoenix on March 31, 2008, 06:44:24 PM
Once the spell has been chosen then the Slot1 bonus would apply. So it helps the chance of the status spell working, but not of the song being chosen.
I agree that Sing needs improvement as well, since 25% of the time it fails (and the Song of Silence is not very helpful either, considering it doesn't block enemy attacks). I'm changing things around in my hack, but if you want to get rid of the failing part, you can change 1EB03 from message pointer 00 ("Nothing happened") to something of your choice, and 1EB08 from spell 00 to a spell number of your choice. If you do that it should work like the other songs -- let me know if it doesn't.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 31, 2008, 06:50:43 PM
Silence has a use to a limited number of situations... Mt. Hobs vs Spirits (Fire)/Souls (Fire)/Gargoyles (Weak/Tornado).. that's the short list of spellcasters.
It also has the unfortunate attribute of preventing Sleep/Charm from working on the target due to status priorities.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Paladin on March 31, 2008, 07:13:10 PM
I would think Curse or Blind might be good here.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 31, 2008, 07:15:34 PM
Perhaps, but the graphics for Sleep, Curse, and Blind are the same IIRC (lame palette swap, but meh I guess).
A more interesting solution.. remove Silence. Add in Stop or Frog... then add in Slow.
You then have a boss compatible spell plus a decent monster surpressor.
Stop is probably a better choice given that Frog status is not that cool on Edward (though, combined with Rydia's Frog spell and giving Edward a self-blink command would make it interesting). Stop is an improvement over Sleep when you consider status resistances plus Sleep's timer works against Will Power... which for some reason the Weeper monster (the female spirit creature) has a high Magic stat for...
Some of these ideas are based on FF5's Sing song list.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Paladin on March 31, 2008, 07:47:23 PM
Sleep the Black Spell uses a purple "smoke clouds" animation.
Sleep the Song uses an orange and purple "boiling orbs" animation and a wierd low-to-high pitched warbled sound effect. I believe it's the same as Balnaba's "Sleep Gas" sound effect and animation. The "boiling orbs" graphics effect is typified by the "Pollen" enemy attack
There is no straight up "Blind" spell. I know there is an enemy attack that sets blind status to the target...I can't remember but I think it's "Glare" or "Gaze" and is used by the big floating eye type monsters. In that case it's just a background flash visual effect and a pinging sound effect. That's what you'd probably have to use as his song. Blind is also set in the multiple status Marlboro bad breath attack. I think that monster must have been created and named by someone that didn't like American Marlboro cigarettes :tongue: However that might be what you're thinking as it's the "smoke clouds" animation but it's either yellow or green (IIRC Yellow).
Mute the Spell uses a the "smoke clouds" animation but it ends with some animated dialog balloons with ellipses in them to signify unable to speak...I guess. It's also got a unique sound effect.
Curse the Enemy Attack Spell uses a red and purple "boiling orbs" animation and a chugging sound effect. It sounds the same and looks the same as the "Pollen" attack but with a different palette. I just now made that Edward's "fourth" song using Phoenix's offsets and that's what I got after testing it, but I had also played with it before as I have made the Ancient Sword able to cast that particular "Curse" spell.
Which BTW, they work like a champ Phoenix. In my current hack Eddie now sings four songs, including curse (I'm just going to leave that), and never misses since he has four normal songs. Thanks for decrypting this stuff!
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 31, 2008, 07:53:29 PM
There is no straight up "Blind" spell. I know there is an enemy attack that sets blind status to the target...I can't remember but I think it's "Glare" or "Gaze" and is used by the big floating eye type monsters. In that case it's just a background flash visual effect and a pinging sound effect. That's what you'd probably have to use as his song. Blind is also set in the multiple status Marlboro bad breath attack. I think that monster must have been created and named by someone that didn't like American Marlboro cigarettes :tongue: However that might be what you're thinking as it's the "smoke clouds" animation but it's either yellow or green (IIRC Yellow).
You're thinking of "Powder". The moth monsters use it. "Glare" is Rubicante's insane fire attack name for FF2US. Gaze is short for "Stone Gaze"
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Paladin on March 31, 2008, 08:13:45 PM
Pollen and Powder have the same GFX and SFX but slightly different (but mostly yellow) palettes I think Powder is yellow on white, and Pollen is yellow on brown. Pollen is used by the Trap Rose...and I think by the other flower monster with a red palette in the Troia area.
Gaze is the Blind attack I'm thinking of...it has it's own special subroutine according to the Bab-il docs.
In FFII "Stone Gaze" is just Petrify, same for FF-IV PSx. It was StonGaze in FF-IV J2e Patch... Not sure about FF4A but they probably fixed to be Stone Gaze correctly.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 31, 2008, 08:18:46 PM
I think you're misreading what I wrote.
The only Blind "spell" is Powder. (Spell #100)
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Paladin on March 31, 2008, 08:27:21 PM
Ah...yes you're right. Bah...I listed it wrong in my expanded magic data...(I listed it as poison which in the chart of statuses comes before blind (10 = poison, 11=blind and I read across wrong :blush:)
Well then if you wanted to have him sing a Blind song then you'd likely use that spell...and of course it'd look like Powder when he sings it.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Pinkpuff on April 01, 2008, 06:03:01 AM
Quote
Sleep the Black Spell uses a purple "smoke clouds" animation.
Sleep the Song uses an orange and purple "boiling orbs" animation and a wierd low-to-high pitched warbled sound effect. I believe it's the same as Balnaba's "Sleep Gas" sound effect and animation. The "boiling orbs" graphics effect is typified by the "Pollen" enemy attack
Sleep the black spell does not use a smoke clouds animation; it uses the boiling orbs effect.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Phoenix on April 01, 2008, 07:10:14 AM
Quote
Which BTW, they work like a champ Phoenix. In my current hack Eddie now sings four songs, including curse (I'm just going to leave that), and never misses since he has four normal songs. Thanks for decrypting this stuff!
You're welcome! :happy:
Quote
Sleep the black spell does not use a smoke clouds animation; it uses the boiling orbs effect.
Pinkpuff is right, at least for FF2us. Did the other versions have a different visual effect?
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on April 01, 2008, 07:20:17 AM
Sleep the black spell does not use a smoke clouds animation; it uses the boiling orbs effect.
Pinkpuff is right, at least for FF2us. Did the other versions have a different visual effect?
No, it is consistant on all versions.
The smoke cloud effect is used by Piggy (orange-pink) aka Whisper (Dark Elf's special), Toad (green), Small (white), Venom (grey) aka Poison (crazy ol' Dr. Lugae's Poison attack is purple IIRC), and Marlboro's Bad Breath (purple).
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Phoenix on May 07, 2008, 05:40:23 PM
Here's an interesting fact about Sing that I never knew. I found it out by looking at a subroutine for dimmed (unusable) commands:
Sing is dimmed out (unusable) except when equipped with a weapon from 44 to 4C. These include the Harps, but also include the Dummy weapon, the Poison Axe, the Rune Axe, the Silver Hammer, the Earth Hammer, the Wooden Hammer, and the Avenger Sword. I have no idea why this would be, unless Cid was supposed to have a Sing command :happy: or it was just lazy coding. More harps also might have been planned and changed to the other weapons later.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on May 07, 2008, 05:51:18 PM
It's probably lazy coding for the most part, but the behavior is consistant with two handed weapons.
It would be nice to know what disables certain commands.. I've gotten around to documenting a number of them, but there's probably some obscure ones that I've missed.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Phoenix on May 07, 2008, 06:07:58 PM
If the subroutine I found covers all of them (which I think it does), then Sing is disabled like above, DarkWave is disabled when a weapon is not equipped, Aim is disabled when a Bow/Arrow is not equipped, and Twin is disabled if one of the Twins can't cast. Can anyone think of any others? These are for dimmed out commands only; other disabling conditions (the Float/Kick thing, Silence status, etc.) are specified elsewhere.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on May 07, 2008, 06:14:50 PM
A quick look of THE command list thread says no. The status ones have more impact anyways.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on September 30, 2008, 03:26:47 PM
Mega :bump:
Probably worth extending discussion with Chant with this command since they are connected.
Protect and Shell still plug into the magic algo.
There is peculiar behavior..
When Edward was Blind, he had a chance to forget casting Protect, so Shell was the casted alone. There was a rare occasion where both spells wouldn't be cast at all. Strangely enough, Protect is never the spell cast by itself.. so there must be something in the algo that's sorely fucked up.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on September 30, 2008, 03:50:21 PM
Yeah, I've seen Protect fail before too.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on January 29, 2009, 01:00:17 PM
Once the spell has been chosen then the Slot1 bonus would apply. So it helps the chance of the status spell working, but not of the song being chosen.
I agree that Sing needs improvement as well, since 25% of the time it fails (and the Song of Silence is not very helpful either, considering it doesn't block enemy attacks). I'm changing things around in my hack, but if you want to get rid of the failing part, you can change 1EB03 from message pointer 00 ("Nothing happened") to something of your choice, and 1EB08 from spell 00 to a spell number of your choice. If you do that it should work like the other songs -- let me know if it doesn't.
It looks correct to me.
This info assumes a headered ROM. The location of the text pointer will always be relative to the spell (I suspect so anyways)
I'm doing this for completeness.. if someone wants to create an example hack for kicks, please let me know.. because I don't want to make a similar hack for the same purpose.
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on January 31, 2009, 07:23:02 AM
I didn't notice this before, but it is worth pointing out.
The actual difference between the SNES and GBA versions of this command is that the SNES version bothers to adhere to Edward's status when determining whether he is able to cast the spell. The GBA version ignores the status of Edward, which allows him to cast whatever spell Sing/Chant may provide even while as a Pig for instance...
Title: Re: "Sing" Command
Post by: Deathlike2 on November 01, 2012, 02:05:29 PM
:bump:
Reflect causes lots of strange things to happen.
When Edward uses Chant while at least one party member has Reflect status, the normal effect of a reflected Protect will show up... However, Shell seems to simply be directed to the monster and skipping the effect on the characters. It is most likely cosmetic, since Miracle has a dual effect working (Esuna+Curaga/Cure3).