øAslickproductions.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5f0fck550j2m4m2fpbtkj2vkm1&topic=1905.msg19955e:/My Web Sites/Slick Productions - FFIV Message Board/slickproductions.org/forum/indexc8d4.htmlslickproductions.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5f0fck550j2m4m2fpbtkj2vkm1&topic=1905.15e:/My Web Sites/Slick Productions - FFIV Message Board/slickproductions.org/forum/indexc8d4.html.zxQ.g^ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÈÐ4iOKtext/htmlISO-8859-1gzip8:Ö4iÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿTue, 10 Mar 2020 06:22:32 GMT0ó°° ®0®P®€§²ð®P.g^ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÂF4i Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)

Author Topic: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)  (Read 17055 times)

LordGarmonde

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2013, 01:43:30 PM »
"stupidly simple" - Could not have been stated better  :wink:

- But I love stuff like that so nice catch.

I just watched a video of someone playing through the SNES FF2 cart glitching their way through trying to set the world record.

The way this guy knows how to exploit the game I'd think it'd be you in disguise - if not someone else on here  :tongue:

Check it out if you're bored (or want something running in the background while you're working - guilty!)

Part 1:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn5tvtP6LNk

Part 2:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=220sKx2AuFo

- My personal favorite is overflowing Tellah's MP and casting Meteo on Baigan - neither he nor his arms saw that one coming.  :finger:
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Grimoire LD

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2013, 01:53:22 PM »
I started watching this a while back, didn't see too much interesting within the first five minutes and left it there. Though now that you mention a fair amount of glitching (and what a glitch that seems) I'll have to check this out!

LordGarmonde

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2014, 04:54:57 PM »
Hmm, any more suggestions on what I should look up? Left to my own devices I ordinarily just procrastinate on matters or try to make a new ability or something, but when I have a focused goal I can go a decent way to accomplish it.

I know what you mean - I've had my ASM code for giving items to the Fat Chocobo when characters leave mostly written out for weeks  - just haven't finished it off or translated it to hex. I'm not 100% sure on where to stick it in the code so that, of course, will be a factor; but yeah, I know what you mean. I don't have anything that comes to mind (of course I'm sure later when we're all busy...) but there is something I've been thinking (dreaming) about most of the day:

It just strikes me wrong the way this game is set to handle leveling up - look at what we just ran into. The stat gains are fine, 1 byte, enough variance to not bother me in it being stored in a table - for now anyway ;) - but HP & MP gains...I just makes me want to come up with a better way. Just to assure myself I took DK Cecil's data (7B528-7B653 in an unheadered 1.1 ROM) and broke it out into 5 byte segments per level from 10->11 up to 69 -> 70 - just as Square wanted...and yeah, just like I thought - 3rd byte for DK Cecil: 00 all the way to Lv50 then 20 until Lv60 and 40 until Lv70.

- Maybe I've looked too deeply into this - but is there not a pattern there?  :wtf: oh Square, there would be no Final Fantasy without you; yet...  :sad:

OK - sarcasm aside HP Gain is a similar story, changing only after each set of 10 Levels: 14 -> 1E -> 28 -> 32 -> 3C -> 46

So my idea is this - given that there is a pointer to exploit for every Actor can we not write some code to replace most of the table storage. As I see it has a few advantages:

One of them, obviously is just freeing up some space in the ROM (probably not a lot trading it off for the necessary algorithms) but I think there's some gain to to be had though a more beneficial consequence is that it would eliminate the problem that was just run into swapping characters around. It won't matter that Tellah doesn't have data from Lv 10 - 20: it can be calculated as needed.

Another one (if I'm thinking of this correctly) is that it removes the need for the Shadow Party - right? The big problem Phoenix had was with experience and how to handle it. It would take more than the above - but the same idea. How does everyone feel about the idea of making experience gains likewise a predictable function of level if it is not already - I'll find out ;) But then the only floating issue is stat gain; But that can be done by expanding the data that is there to give everyone a set from leveling from Lv 1 to 2 all the way to 70 and then handle the 70 - 99 as appropriate...or try to pattern/randomize that as well.

What do you think? Anything you got I'd like to hear. I will say this is very much my kind of project so if I can get support for most of the coding I'll be very happy to go through the tables as the are and pull out existing patterns. Whatever can't be patterned directly I'm sure I can find a formula - Excel should be able to - because if it's a formula too complicated for Excel then it can't be coded in Assembly anyway :tongue:
Also, I don't just mean I'll put the data in Excel and then just hand it off - I'll write out all the algorithms in terms of logic - I just need good support when it comes to writing the code and then getting it into the game.

Cyan over here has it right - when it comes to coding  :isuck:

But I love math - and programming: strangely I'm just really good at one and really bad at the other.  :hmm:
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Grimoire LD

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2014, 09:08:58 PM »
That is very ambitious! The Level-up system has given me my own kind of headaches, and I would honestly just trade the whole thing for 99 levels of random level ups as FFI did. But I am a lover of the Random (don't get me started how much I absolutely hate FFIV's AI because randomness is not even a possibility, despite it being a large part of FF AI until FFIV.) I still need to think of a way to randomize location and hook together something so the enemy index goes up +1 each map, maybe use that faux random chart from 1900-19FF for my Roguelike project... But I'm digressing...

How long is the code? Chillyfeez found some spare code at "the last ~110 (hex) bytes in the 30000s (LoROM) are free." But... that's battle normally. We don't know how the game would react in certain circumstances when forced to use data from possibly a different bank.

I'm a bit fuzzy on the particulars of where this is all located though, such as where are all these pointers and the like? Perhaps just manually switching the pointers to the Level 70+ data might do what I'm looking to accomplish.

LordGarmonde

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2014, 10:40:34 AM »
Extremely!  :laugh:

I actually have a lot to say - I've been working on it on-and-off all night bouncing between that and actual work - stuck working out some algorithms for Photoshop - everything has to have their little querks...but anyway - I'll post my level findings later, I don't want to break my gate now - but I have a question if you are awake  :tongue:

What are the mathematical capabilities/limitations of Assembly as you've worked with it through these many FFIV adventures. DK Cecil, for example, has a perfect cubic function for his experience data as a function of level - but cubic functions suck to deal with at this level - I remember that from FORTRAN.

Anyway, I'm interested to hear your thoughts, you've worked out many fine algorithms so I leave the question with you - and anyone interested in coming onboard; of course - all are welcome!

- Also: If you have a good reference for Assembly when it comes to computation I'd welcome that as well - I have my book for C that I use for everything, but they are asking too much of the 68516  :eek:

One more thing while I remember - when you have a minute run the game and watch the RAM at 7E0FFF - one byte before the party data starts - it's cycles like crazy and seems to have quite the range. It runs whenever the world map is up - and other times as well (on the Lunar Whale for example - so that's still counting as out in the world even when on deck) - Anyway, that may be a place to snag an at least partially random value. I'd love to take a look at the table to which you earlier referred as well - very curious to see.
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Grimoire LD

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2014, 11:19:16 AM »
Hmm... how do I say this without sound like a complete idiot...

I can understand 65816 ASM for the most part, this is due to over a decade dabbling in hacking and ASM. Starting with Zelda 64 way back in the day, then Final Fantasy Tactics for several years, then I started to take a serious look at FFIV and with the knowledge I learned from that I went back to Zelda 64 where I cracked open some pretty important findings then came back here where now I can read the ASM as if they were words on a page.

But I am Terrible at Math, to be honest I'm not even sure what is meant by a cubic function for experience data as a function of level. I think it may mean that something is being put to the 4th Power? But when it comes to Math, I am a bit of a dunce...

As for what I used for reference, that would be... http://wiki.superfamicom.org/snes/show/65816+Reference

It really helped (and continues to help me) understand the more obscure commands or things that I wasn't sure of. For nearly ten years I was under the impression that BEQ/BNE/ and all of that was referring to if it was equal to some value and knew nothing about CMP's until I started to work with FFIV. Quite embarassing.

But I will take a look at the data if you'd like me to. Maybe I can make some sense out of it... possibly.

Now that is a quickly rotating byte! But what is this data...? I never gave thought to the functions before the Main Stats, there's quite a bit of specifics here it seems.

Thanks for this lead though. It might just be a catalyst down the line.


LordGarmonde

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2014, 01:07:13 PM »
It sounds like we can make a good team then - I can handle the math all you have to do is make it worth something.  :tongue:

Though I kid it's kinda true - I could crunch numbers forever over here - but without someone to write usable code it's kind of a dead end project.

You're not a dunce - dunces can't write code especially not the volumes you've engineered - you just don't have an ongoing affair with math like I do that's all :wink:

That said - don't bother with the data (obviously you're not forbidden) but that's what I can contribute - when I finish the analysis I'll have a set of instructions that will say:

If Rosa's Level is between 10 & 70:

Take her current level + 1 (i.e. the level she is going into at this level-up) and multiply that by 3

Add that to Rosa's Reference Value Stored at $XXXXXX

Add this to her last recorded "To Next Level"


... blah blah  - whatever it ends up being (it won't be that but along those lines) - but that requires access to a multiplier - and if powers get involved that's a real problem - but the sort of thing I'm no good at.

I've got some tricks up my sleeve to try and keep the math as basic as possible so that the processor at least has a chance.

Quick explanation on functions (my apologies for my presumption) - I've been a TA for years, I should know better...anyway:

Cubic function - fortunately not 4th power, only to the 3rd - but it might as well be to the moon for the level of arithemetic this processor is designed for - and yet what we get out of it will still amaze me forever. Basically what I was getting at (a little in question atm - I found a bug in Excel throwing me off a bit - but it should still work) is that to a very good approximation there is a cubic function that can take as an input your current level and using only that a few reference points I can give you back the Exp. requirement for that level:

  So Experience Needed @ Level X = a*X^3 + b*X^2 + c*X^1 + d      for a set of constants a,b,c,d determined by modeling the data

    - My note about Cecil is that from Level 10 up to 70 I found set of numbers to plug in for a,b,c,& d where the result is close enough to the values in the table to give an R^2 value of 0.9999 which is extremely good about 99.98% accuracy - I wish I could get that with my work data...

   So I think that's it for now. Hopefully that description made sense - especially in terms of what I'm planning to hand off at the end of this rainbow. To elaborate a bit more I would think that there will be needed one major algorithms, and then a bunch of break points & shifted  references to plug in certain numbers for certain characters - but I think we can do it.

I know the patterns are there - it's just how complicated they are that comes into play. I left Cecil alone for a bit and looked at Rosa's Exp - looking at only the 1st 10 levels I can write a reasonable function that is only to the first power in level - that's doable. So if I can get away with linear (a*X + b) approximations I think I'm home free -  but we shall see.

  Also furthering the 'you're not a dunce' point - you wrote up code for Magic Swords - which not only acknowledges it as one the best abilities ever - but it's just plain awesome to have the ability at hand. Outstanding work!  :childish:

- One last point - I have no idea either what that crazy looping byte is about - maybe the water updating? I agree though, while not a slam dunk solution for a randomizer - definitely a possibly jumping-off point. That's something I'm thinking about for this project as well - very likely whatever we bash out to calculate the experience needed will either over or undershoot the intended value - so I'm thinking maybe that could add a little mystery...I'm with you there too: random is good
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Grimoire LD

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2014, 01:46:01 PM »
Ah, you're a Teacher's Assistant? I plan on trying to become a teacher myself, preferably in the field of History.

Now this is a very ingenious plan you have set up here! It would save So much space to have things compiled in this manner rather than the haphazard experience standards the game sets up for the characters.

 "So Experience Needed @ Level X = a*X^3 + b*X^2 + c*X^1 + d      for a set of constants a,b,c,d determined by modeling the data"

The only part I worry about is that even the smallest change here might throw off someone's experience to astronomical differences between others.

With Rydia for instance...

Level 2 = a*2^3 + b*2^2 + c*2^1 + d      for a set of constants a,b,c,d determined by modeling the data.
a=2
b=3
c=4
d=5

2x2^3= 8
+
3x2^3=216
+
4x2^3=512
+
5
=
741 Exp. for Level 2. But maybe you had a specific idea on how to use the variables.

Now with powers... I don't think 65816 supports those, I see no instructions in regards to them in any case. The closest thing I've seen is something that doubles a value, but that's not exactly powers.

But your second idea of not involving powers (you can get away with squaring it, obviously) is probably the one we'll have to go with.

LordGarmonde

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2014, 02:53:36 PM »
With Rydia for instance...

Level 2 = a*2^3 + b*2^2 + c*2^1 + d      for a set of constants a,b,c,d determined by modeling the data.
a=2
b=3
c=4
d=5

2x2^3= 8
+
3x2^3=216
+
4x2^3=512
+
5
=
741 Exp. for Level 2. But maybe you had a specific idea on how to use the variables.

- Bingo! You got it. Sounds great of paper...or rather in type  :tongue:

the good thing about that scheme is that the a,b,c, & d are the same over the whole range. I was thinking about the same thing you were - slight changes can indeed propagate into a huge error - 2^3 = 8, no big deal, but 65^3 is 274625 (430C1!) - which by my calculations would mean that we'll be able to code for it by the time the clock reaches half-past impossible

- But I was prepared - I had to rethink a lot of things coming from a 'C'-world over to FORTRAN - I eventually worked though but I got smacked around pretty good on the way. One of the easier tricks - I just call it shimming (but there's a real name for it) - is probably what will end up working out best :

Basically - after working out the main algorithm - look at how far off it is from the real values and see where it's worst off...then for that (and the surrounding levels) have a small adjustment routine - probably calling another constant but I think we can manage the room :P

Also - the algorithm as I have it going in my mind will probably work something like this - if this ends up being indecipherable don't sweat it I'm sure in an hour I won't know what I was even getting at -  the need for :sleep: is definitely knocking at the door

I had gotten part way through writing up what unfortunately has the technical name of double divided difference - which sucks as a name...the method is built on addition and subtraction...later at the end you'll need some multiplication to get you from "I just got to Level 50" over to "That means you need this much more experience to hit 51" - Oh and let us not forget Square tapping into the magic gain byte to just to keep things fresh.

- I'm going to call it for now - I got halfway through sketching out the ddd approach so we don't have to worry about cubes (or squares even). The problem was that without either a table or a visual it's much harder to follow - even for me and supposedly I know I'm trying to get at.

- I'll be back later, hopefully with more of a plan than that of the 'Underpants Gnomes'  :childish:

Ah, you're a Teacher's Assistant? I plan on trying to become a teacher myself, preferably in the field of History.

Oh cool! Any particular facet of History?
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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2014, 03:22:11 PM »
I have a vested interest in Ancient Chinese History, but... that does not a job make. Probably World History, American History is not a subject I have any interest in pursuing in much of the long term.

Ah, still compiling the plan you want to use? In the meantime I can find where the game draws the exp. from (well it's pretty obvious from where) and if this routine can be modified for custom code.

chillyfeez

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2014, 04:04:02 PM »
Hi guys -
I haven't dropped off the face of the earth. This is just a busy season for me, and I don't have a lot of time to work on hacking, so I don't have much to contribute to the board.
I do have a little bit of info about SNES's mathematical capabilities.
The only functions it can perform (technically) are addition, subtraction, and multiplication and division by two (with no remainders). So, unfortunately, more complicated mathematical functions need to be expressed in terms of these basic functions.
It's possible in theory to do a lot with just addition, but the more complicated the function, the more code you're talking about. I assume the game has specific portions of ROM already devoted to multiplying two numbers, and possibly even computing exponents, and it just JMLs to those portions when it needs to. But that's only speculation. A deep inspection of the code that runs when calculating elemental weakness damage might be revelatory (since multiplication of a figure is certainly taking place there).

LordGarmonde

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2014, 06:38:40 PM »
OK - I think this will help explain where I'm going with this. As you guys rightfully pointed out - very limited options (on the face at least)

- I did not know about the adherence to binary multiplication - that's good to know, thanks Chillyfeez

Anyway - I plan to use the differences between levels to build up as we are going along. The picture marked "From Table" is what the game has now - values in black are stored on the ROM - so in the case of the game as it is they coded in every level. My plan is to store 4 values per character (and some corrective bytes for each character as they are going along) My picture marks in black the top row, the first tabulated value and the first 3 differences. Just for my own peace of mind I have to say that though this is a divided difference method there will be no division because I'm going to keep everything linear - i.e. no (Level)^2 anywhere. With the 4 values in black I can calculate the calculate the values in red - and then blue at the next level, and then green - and those are all exact. Mathematically speaking they better still be exact because I only have 4 levels and I started off with an exact picture so if I some how lost the information: "whoo smokies..."

 :edit: I just looked at my layout again - I made it look harder than it is...that first column of data is what I calculated for the actual Exp Levels...what the ROM stores is the 2nd column, the difference between the experience levels...even less to calculate: score! - Also the number for the first column of Level 13 is wrong - but just ignore that column...two wrongs can make a right...and now back to our program in progress...

So that gets me to Level 13 - but then what where's the next round of data? If you can imagine adding one more block to each I would need the number below 39 - but that depends on the number that should be below 259 - and that depends ... That would be a problem were it not for one thing - there's a pattern down in the 3rd difference (for the low data at least - probably have to shift up a few later) if you use the data from the ROM to keep building the difference table you'll find this sequence:

    39, 41, 44, 48, 51, 54, 58, 60, 63, 67, 70, 73, 77, 79,...

A few things jumped out at me -  first was there set of differences:

     (41 - 39) = 2, (44 - 48) = 4,  (51 - 48) = 3,  (54 - 51) = 3, (60 - 58) = 2, (67 - 63) = 4, (70 - 67) = 3, (73 - 70) = 3, (77 - 73) = 4, (79 - 77) = 2

      => D4(Level) =  (2, 4, 3, 3, 2, 4, 3, 3, 4, ...)  where the first value corresponds with Level 14   i.e. in math speak: D4 (14) = 2, or on a graph of Level vs 4th Difference there would be a point at (14, 2)  (Level is the 'X' coordinate because we know it (independent variable), that's why it's first)

  There's not a super stellar pattern here: 2-4-3-3 then 2-4-3-3 again, but then it's 4, so the pattern would have to be at least 9 long (those 9 again) - and that's no pattern at all. But...if you look at just the numbers themselves you'll notice this:

         D4 seems to always be:  3 +/- 1     

Also just to clarify: that sequence as calculated is 100% exact - I took the original numbers from the ROM and went through each level of calculation to get down to the D3(Level) = (39, 41, 44, 48, 51, 54, 58, 60, 63, 67, 70, 73, 77, 79,...

- So we're not making stuff up...yet  :wink:

But that consistency in difference is huge - the average of the 1st 8  from 2, 4, ... is exactly 3 which would mean to a good approximation if I just assume that 4th difference is 3  then I'm probably going to be OK!

And we are... take a look you could try and build the number from scratch - Level 13 has a 3rd difference of 39...which is exactly 3 x 13...then 14 goes with 41 which is almost 14 x 3 = 42...but 3 is a bad multiplier...though I have a question about that (for later). But I can fix that - if I want to stick to powers of 2,  if I shift one in 4th Difference then it makes sense to shift back as my starting point...i.e I was trying (Level x 3) = D4...but what about instead starting off at Level 10 (I can start anywhere I want - it just probably won't work most places)...but 10 x 4 = 40...almost 41...11 x 4 = 44, right on the money...12 x 4 = 48, also exact...13 x 4 = 52, 1 off from 51, but then it gets a little worse 54 is 56 = 14 x 4...and so on...

Long story short (too late) with very little effort on my part (other than formatting problems and chasing down a bug in Excel) I can write out a pretty good approximation 

In fact, here's what I mean...

When I calculated the D4 values (all the way to 99 - I wasn't doing it out so why not) that value of 79 corresponded to Level 25...which is pretty good - if I had guessed D4 = +3 / Level...3 x 25 = 75, only 4 short...but then if I jump to Level 50...I would guess 150, just adding another 75...it's 158...if I had added 4 to my guess for Level 25 they'd both have been exact...

Thank you all for attending this lecture: I hope it was informative and stimulating  :happy:

To be serious, I do let's say half-apologize for going on-and-on I guess I wanted to show off that approach even more than I thought...because truth be told that method is not approved by the American Dental Association...or whatever their little math club is called..."It's a bad strategy because you can basically write it down for someone as 'Take a look at the data and hope you get lucky'" -  :bah:

OK - rant over - and just a little more actual business on this...a few other things of note are that those differences of 1, or 2, even 4 - that's a linear difference...i.e. everything in this difference table is just from addition (technically it should be an addition table, we start and add outward) - so what I'm driving at is when I say you're off by 8 in guessing 150 for Level 50: that means 8...it doesn't get worse over time that 8 is always just 8 off...so even if it were 8 off all the way back to 25 you would have missed the total by only 200...and at level 50 the number you're looking for is 874,300...I think it's an acceptable loss, no?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 07:03:34 PM by LordGarmonde »
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Grimoire LD

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2014, 07:57:39 PM »
Hey Chillyfeez! Always glad to hear from you. Yes, I am wondering about that myself... It probably runs the number through an area a number of times until it reaches its desired goal, if I had to guess.

Phew, now this... this is complicated to wrap my head around. So... Each level will have a sequence that has to be x4 to gain a Level. So at Level 10 you would need 39x4 = which would be 156+... um... I'm sorry this is extremely complicated to me, computations and differences always throw me for a loop. I re-read it three times, but I'm afraid I just can't grasp what is being said. Nor do the charts help me too much.  39+200+815=2139? But... 815 is the experience needed to level up... and 2139 doesn't appear as a level... Oh! That's starting experience, I see. The experience one will have when they level up... that said I'm not sure what the 200-259 or 39 part plays in all of this...


LordGarmonde

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2014, 08:03:34 PM »
... that said I'm not sure what the 200-259 or 39 part plays in all of this...


because it's a typo and it's supposed to be 220  :tongue:

there are other mistakes in the numbers too...more on that in a minute and it gets a lot easier now that I realized that the game is looking for TNL and not the actual level...a lot easier...I'm writing it up now, be up soon
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Grimoire LD

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Re: Apropos of nothing (except of course FFIV)
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2014, 08:34:13 PM »
Ideally I would love our system to be able to calculate from Level 1-70 for every character. That way we could have characters join whenever the modder would like rather than "when their level fits them".
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 08:46:47 PM by Grimoire LD »