øAslickproductions.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5f0fck550j2m4m2fpbtkj2vkm1&topic=173.msg1681e:/My Web Sites/Slick Productions - FFIV Message Board/slickproductions.org/forum/indexce2d-2.htmlslickproductions.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5f0fck550j2m4m2fpbtkj2vkm1&action=profile;u=6;area=showposts;start=3300e:/My Web Sites/Slick Productions - FFIV Message Board/slickproductions.org/forum/indexce2d-2.html.zxÁ¡h^ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÈ0PdåOKtext/htmlISO-8859-1gzip0|ÖåÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿWed, 11 Mar 2020 08:47:21 GMT0ó°° ®0®P®€§²ð®À¡h^ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ©)å Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?

Author Topic: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?  (Read 20396 times)

Entroper

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2008, 11:33:28 AM »
I really detest those lists.  But, I'm not the only one who will be playing, so we'll see.  :)

Pinkpuff

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2008, 10:46:45 AM »
I find them to be far more useful than the CT bars.

Both seem to be intended to tell you who or what's going next, however the lists actually tell you this information whereas the CT bars do not. To illustrate what I mean, suppose we have a fast character (let's say Edward) and a slow character (let's say Cid). Edward's CT bar is almost empty but Cid's is almost full. Who's going next? You may say Cid is going next because his bar is almost full, but then again, even though Edward's bar is almost empty, he's so fast that he might just get a turn before Cid. So what do the CT bars tell me then? Nothing useful as far as I can tell. At least with the list, I can look at it and for example say "alright, Edward will indeed get a turn before Cid so I'll get Cecil to heal him now rather than attacking and waiting for Cid to heal him because he will have auto-hid by then."

Another thing is that I have never seen a game with CT bars that also displayed the CT bars of the monsters, whereas the games with the turn lists generally display not only character turns, but also monster turns and slow actions (such as spells and other things that don't resolve immediately). It would really be nice to know when, say, Meteor will resolve so I can judge my characters' actions accordingly.

Plus it's always nice to have an "in-between" option between FF1's completely turn-based structure and Active Time where the battle time ticks away and monsters attack you while  you're making decisions.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2008, 11:36:58 AM »
CT's ATB bar system is only to reflect who's available so you can do dual+triple techs. Time passing actually means something.

FF10's battle system is a "compromise" between a turn battle system (each side gets one turn to do something for one round, who attacks first is based on AGI/Speed) and an ATB system (AGI/Speed or some stat powers the bar). The only difference is that indecision doesn't count against you (which makes this system relatively weak and geared for it IMO). Weak/slow monsters have literally no value (not that they should, but overleveling makes them easily irrelevent early on), whereas fast attacks/spells rue the day (potentially giving the strongest/fastest monster no semblence of a chance to beat you based on attack selection).

Knowing when the monsters turn is makes the challenge too easy.. it's bad enough as AI scripts make them predictable as is in most instances. In something like FF1 or FFMQ, where there's a chance that the monster can actually respond and put up a fight... I can see why some battle may appear overpowered (see FF1 Sorcerors), but at least it gives the enemies a chance. I can't really say the same for FF10.
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Entroper

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2008, 12:13:01 PM »
Deathlike pretty much outlined why I hate the list thing.  I don't like the player knowing when the monsters are going to attack.  There needs to be some element of uncertainty to make the player predict what will happen; otherwise it becomes a turn-based strategy game.  I like those too, but that's not Final Fantasy IMO.  I really have no problem figuring out who's going to go next with the bars, since you know who in your party is uber-fast and who is uber-slow anyway (except for FF4A's buggy ATB system).

I do plan to have the ATB system be a little more lenient with passing time while you're choosing actions.  I don't like how the "wait" setting in FF games doesn't actually seem to actually wait for you unless you're in the spell or item menus.  And I also plan to let you skip an action and keep a full meter, the way FF6 lets you.

Deathlike2

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2008, 12:38:42 PM »
Deathlike pretty much outlined why I hate the list thing.  I don't like the player knowing when the monsters are going to attack.  There needs to be some element of uncertainty to make the player predict what will happen; otherwise it becomes a turn-based strategy game.  I like those too, but that's not Final Fantasy IMO.  I really have no problem figuring out who's going to go next with the bars, since you know who in your party is uber-fast and who is uber-slow anyway (except for FF4A's buggy ATB system).

I keep repeating that FF4A's ATB bug is limited to two versions (v1.0 Jap and US). Don't blame the Euro and v1.1 Jap revisions.

Quote
I do plan to have the ATB system be a little more lenient with passing time while you're choosing actions.  I don't like how the "wait" setting in FF games doesn't actually seem to actually wait for you unless you're in the spell or item menus.  And I also plan to let you skip an action and keep a full meter, the way FF6 lets you.

The wait setting has been consistant on all FF SNES versions... for the most part. Only FF6 doesn't stop the bar on any spell/attack animations...
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Entroper

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2008, 01:06:23 PM »
It's not just the one bug, and I have an actual US cart that I play on, so it aggravates me.

I'd like the wait setting to wait while you're choosing an action, not just a spell or item.  Especially since selecting the right enemy can be tricky with the way some of the formations are laid out.

Deathlike2

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2008, 01:47:46 PM »
Well, that's behavior is consistant (including CT) and I've gotten used to it. That's compensation for enemies that suck most of the time.  :tongue:
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2008, 03:42:01 PM »
I'll also include a "patch" which creates a more modern version of FF1 with ATB, MP, and other enhancements (hopefully some updated art will be included here).

How updated do you want them? Because it might be fun to go through and update the existing NES FF1 graphics to have a few more shades of color, I did something similar with Zelda Classic for my first quest but scrapped the project when I found a really nice color enhanced GB Zelda tileset.

Lenophis

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2008, 03:44:35 PM »
Omg double post, kinda. :tongue:

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2008, 03:48:23 PM »
Strange, I somehow accidentally got into the split topics menu while typing my reply, apparently the partially finished post must've gone through when I canceled that.

Entroper

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2008, 04:18:48 PM »
I'll also include a "patch" which creates a more modern version of FF1 with ATB, MP, and other enhancements (hopefully some updated art will be included here).

How updated do you want them? Because it might be fun to go through and update the existing NES FF1 graphics to have a few more shades of color, I did something similar with Zelda Classic for my first quest but scrapped the project when I found a really nice color enhanced GB Zelda tileset.

http://entroper.no-ip.org/Pictures/OF/Monsters/

Have at it.  :)

I still plan to use sprites, if that's what you're asking (though I am fairly proficient in OpenGL, and I haven't ruled out 3D if people want to create the art -- I'm a useless modeler).  But full 24-bit color sprites at much higher than 32x32 resolution is what I'm going for.  Something like 256x256 for smaller enemies and 512x512 for bosses.

A friend of mine on another forum did this:



Just to get an idea.

I'd also like to go from 16x16 to 64x64 for the map tiles.

Pinkpuff

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2008, 04:49:15 PM »
If there's no list option, I'd still be happy with the "true wait mode" you describe. It's annoying getting "Chance to Strike First" and then have the monsters beating the tar out of you while you're still inputting commands for your second character. That should never happen no matter how fast the monsters are.

But in defense of the lists once more, I personally see no problem with sucky monsters sucking. If you're that powerful in relation to the monsters I think you deserve to be able to obliterate them. They don't need an "edge". Besides, it should be up to the monster designer how he or she wants to balance the monsters within the system, not the system designer. If the monsters are designed properly they'll still pose a threat no matter what you know about them. I prefer more strategic battles, and I'm certain I'm not the only one.

In any case, even in ATB mode there should be an option for the player to turn off the CT bars in favor of some other piece of info like Max HP or MP or something as there was in the SNES versions (sadly lacking in FF4A where the bars were even more useless than they are normally).
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Entroper

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2008, 05:11:13 PM »
Yes, the useless pre-emptive strikes are incredibly annoying.  I was just in the Cave of Trials and fought two identical battles, one was a pre-emptive strike, one was a normal battle.  I chose exactly the same actions for my characters in both battles and did it very quickly, but in the pre-emptive strike battle, I got hit.  In the normal battle, I dispatched all the enemies before they got a chance to act.  So apparently pre-emption is bad?  :wtf:  :lame:

I think instead of having an option for having the bars vs. max hp, I'll just have all the info on the screen (MP, too).  On a PC you have the luxury of 1024x768 and above, which leaves plenty of room for additional information.

Deathlike2

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2008, 05:41:47 PM »
 :wtf: People complaining about enemies striking first? If you are allowed to strike first, the enemies need to get equal opportunity. It would only be fair anyways. Heck, the only chance they ever get is when you're underleveled, exposing back attacks (and pincer under FF3/6). Seriously, I don't find that to be an issue if you suck at kicking ass.
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Entroper

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Re: Is there a "Zelda Classic" for FF?
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2008, 05:50:19 PM »
I think you misunderstand me.  I'm saying when I get a pre-emptive strike and start with full ATB meters, the enemies attack before I can choose actions for more than one or two characters.  I don't have a problem with being surprised or back attacked occasionally, but when I get the pre-emptive, I should actually be more effective than when I don't get a pre-emptive, don't you think?