øAslickproductions.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5f0fck550j2m4m2fpbtkj2vkm1&topic=1911.msg20099e:/My Web Sites/Slick Productions - FFIV Message Board/slickproductions.org/forum/indexd00a.htmldelayedslickproductions.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5f0fck550j2m4m2fpbtkj2vkm1&topic=1911.0e:/My Web Sites/Slick Productions - FFIV Message Board/slickproductions.org/forum/indexd00a.html.zxÃ(g^ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÈÐzOKtext/htmlISO-8859-1gzip8:ÖzÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÑHTue, 10 Mar 2020 05:58:48 GMT0ó°° ®0®P®€§²ð®À(g^ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿkHz The Drawing Board

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LordGarmonde

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The Drawing Board
« on: January 13, 2014, 10:11:48 PM »
Greetings Programs  :wink:

Welcome to my experiment!


Here one-and-all may post as much or as little as they want/need to work through problems, algorithms, sketches whatever the story.




Table of Contents (Updated 1/8/14)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Preface - What's Going on Here? (Part of this Post - See Below)

   - "A Few Words..." (Overview)
 
   - "What; There are Rules Here? No-No-No There Aren't Any Rules Here" (OK, One or Two...) - Updated 1/16/14
   
   - "What Was I Thinking?" (The Proposal of this Experiment)


Expanded TNL Experience Table (With Added Values Filling In Low Level Gaps)

      http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1911.msg20136#msg20136

Ideas about Storylines, Character Development, etc. (Several pages long)

      http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1911.msg20143#msg20143


Final Fantasy IX - Too Often Forgotten

      http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1911.msg20234#msg20234




Some Links to Programming References (Forthcoming)




End ToC:     <<Insert Link to Most Recent Post Here>>>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



The Preface

   You don't have to point out that when I start writing stuff out my brain runs like a dog that broke the leash - everybody knows :wink:
   

"A Few Words..."

  -  "Nitwit!  Blubber!  Oddment!  Tweak!  -  Thank you!"


   I was driving home one evening, thinking aloud through things I agree/disagree with regarding how topics in mathematics can be built up from one to the next and how similar step-wise thinking may prove to be an optimal strategy in many problem solving situations. I got home looked at my white board at the same formulas with the same notes scrawled off to the side, and the same terms connected by double-headed arrows and thought 'I want another whiteboard' - I didn't want to erase what I had - what if tomorrow had I see it again "it" would have hit me - or if a friend was visiting as asked, quite reasonably, "what the hell is that?" - Next thing I knew it was 2:30 in the morning and I was here laying out my proposal which I'm pretty sure looking back now I could have gotten away with naming: "Wow...I need to get way more sleep..."



"What; There are Rules Here? No-No-No There Aren't Any Rules Here"

   Is there a better response to an argument when you tell someone: "I'm going to beat you with a crowbar until you go away..."



The "Rules"

      Simple - "Be excellent to each other" - "Party on, dude!"

      Seriously:

   If a post is not a direct follow up on the previous post just try to make sure that the substance contained therein is clear - this will help everyone - especially me when I add links to the ToC.

   If helpful/productive notes may be added in posts to regarding future posts/followups - Please remove notes when no longer necessary with tag of: "Notes Removed by XXX on YY/YY/YY" - or Equivalent (Added 1/16/14)





"What Was I Thinking?"

AKA The Original Post


I had an idea I hope will be beneficial in more ways than one - but if not then I will know that. :) I'm sure everyone has noticed my tendency (or if you will: compulsion) to go on-and-on-and-on in many of my posts. I have concluded that in this regard though I would rather have only concise posts  to ask that of myself is actually impossible. In fact, this post will end up helping to prove my point. It's a perfect storm with me that leaves me no choice but to expound - even about expounding.

Few things about me to illustrate where I'm coming from. I'm a talker. (duh) This only applies if it is a subject of interest but I definitely go on and on. I'm also a big why/how kind of guy - I gotta know what's behind the curtain. Those two lead me to teaching which I love very much - if someone wants to know I want to help them understand. I'm happy to have run into others of that mindset on the Forum. Lastly (on a sadder note) I am in a state often where I am sick such that I have no usable voice. Tracing back when posts - and E-Mail, and IMs, etc. started to grow in length I've found my inability to to actually talk with people to be the catalyst. Up against all that I really think short posts are just simply against my prime programming.

So I had an idea: What if I had a thread where I could go on and on about whatever (mathematical aspects of modeling the experience table and replacement schema comes to mind) that was separate from the rest. Just like I'd use one of my whiteboards to sketch out whatever comes to mind (frequently to find the holes) I want to have a place to really just go-for-broke with ideas and concepts. Then, like writing down the answer I could take the novel-length post and pull out the punchline and post that wherever it is appropriate.

At first I was thinking that I'm just reinventing "Apropos of Nothing" - but I feel this and that can function well together serving different goals. I see "Apropos" as a place to have discussions with each other about ideas and concepts - direct back-and-forth. This thread, on the other hand, is more you and The Drawing Board - a place to work out ideas (even stuff not even half-baked) - but in a place that can keep a running record that most importantly anyone can read. I'm a big believer in the school of thought behind The Manhattan Project - many minds all together with every idea being community property. That's the whole point of the Forum - right? :P

More personally I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't have taken so long to work out the experience formula if I had expounded about more than just my initial thought and then the conclusion - there were other approaches in there. Even without help directly it's possible that some passing comment or even the act of writing it up would have steered me differently. Another way to think about it is like writing the answer on the test sheet and then showing the work elsewhere. (admittedly a math/science skewed example)

To further my selfish agenda (though I hope it to benefit the populous at large) it will give me a place to record and share the machinations of my crazy brain with the hopes that I can then distill my super-length diatribe down to its essence and then I can just link over to this thread as a source of additional but not required supporting information.

That said, I acknowledge that this in its genesis was for me but I hope others can make similar use of it. If it doesn't pan out I plan to keep it, similar to what Grimoire LD has: I'll probably rename to LordGarmonde's Notebook (or similar) - really just an shared version of what I do in real life - I have notebooks all over with ideas, and concepts, derivations, etc.

Or...I'd be more than happy to swing the other way and open this up for teaching purposes as well. The first example that comes to mind is Chillyfeez's most excellent answer to my earlier question about ROM adjustments:

       http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1713.msg20097#new

Because I don't expect that to be the last time I appeal to the collective wisdom I could see having that question/answer here and then in Pinkpuff's thread linking over to here. (it works as it is now - don't get me wrong)

That said let me close out by saying I still feel that this is your Forum - and as the new kid on the block I don't want to come in and try and reshape everything - it's just an idea. (and ideas about that idea) Also, in case it's not obvious, this is my first time (ever) posting on any public forum, or collaborating online with anyone - I'm used to being a one-man-band - and though this is a welcome change for me it also means that I'm a noob in more ways than one.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments? Feel free to dive right in and post a block of half-finished code.

Door's open!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 04:52:12 PM by LordGarmonde »
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Grimoire LD

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2014, 11:20:45 PM »
You are a fairly rare mind to find online, though our group may be small we have assembled quite an amount of talent in it. I am a  fairly decent coder (of routines... for FFIV) Chillyfeez appears to be a great modder and a great coder, PinkPuff is a wizard (Sorceress?) at programming as displayed by FF4kster's amazing growth, you are proficient at Math, which is an area that I am terrible in and can look at our codings in different eyes than might someone else. Your talents are being put to great use in reformatting this abominable Exp system formulated for FFIV.

You never caught me as someone new to forums. You are doing an above great job if such is the case. I am looking forward to seeing what else you add to the topic.
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chillyfeez

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2014, 11:23:58 PM »
Ok
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chillyfeez

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2014, 12:39:05 AM »
Sorry. That was meant to be funny. I wanted it to be the first reply but Grimoire beat me to it.

As far as any perceived rules to this forum, I don't think there really are any. Organization is good so keeping posts on the appropriate thread and linking between threads when it is pertinent is all good. There's nothing inherently wrong with being long winded in posts. Sometimes trying to explain what you're doing - or even worse, what you're thinking about doing - requires a very long and seemingly convoluted block of text. For me, personally... I tend to zone out when reading, so it would help me if you tried to avoid burying the lead. So, "today I was thinking about blablablah," or whatever, so I know what I'm reading about right off the bat, but that's just me.

As far as being noobish... don't feel bad. You seem to have the enthusiasm necessary for doing great things. It's good, too, to have a big goal to work towards. For you, maybe it's fixing the level up system. When I started up in this forum, my lofty goal from the get go was to crack the summon system. Grimoire was very helpful to me there. I got sidetracked from that goal along the way and ended up learning some other cool stuff, and in the process learned quite a bit about SNES ASM... partly on purpose but mostly by chance. Eventually, as you may know, I did figure summons out, but I'm long since past the point where I am satisfied to just sit back and call that an accomplishment unto itself.

Anyway, my point is, you may not yet have discovered all the ways you'll be able to contribute to this little community, but you seem to have the necessary makings of someone who certainly can do so.

Btw, Grimoire, you seem to have forgotten all of the super-important disassembly research you've done on your notes thread. Seriously, opening up the index at the beginning of that thread is like, one of the necessary first steps when I do anything now.
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LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2014, 02:18:56 AM »


Quote from: Grimoire LD on January 13, 2014, 11:20:45 PM
You are a fairly rare mind to find online, though our group may be small we have assembled quite an amount of talent in it.

Thank you very much; believe me when I say that I feel similarly about all of you. Also, Chillyfeez is right - you had not mentioned your extraordinary efforts towards disassembly - I thought at one point about how much of the game you must have broken down - I'd go with quite up there to say the least. Also, bonus points for you continued modesty as well. :wink:

It's nice to have been so welcomed by people who not only share my love for FF4 but have the drive to keep diving into it and the talent to back it up. - Definitely some sorcery surrounding PinkPuff - certainly access to a magic beyond my comprehension.

Quote from: chillyfeez on January 14, 2014, 12:39:05 AM
Sorry. That was meant to be funny. I wanted it to be the first reply but Grimoire beat me to it.

 - It's still funny; and after that quick turn-around for my question about FF4kster you can say anything you want.  :happy:

- That also answered my followup question about how to keep from running into the next event if I edit an event to be longer - so another  :cookie: to recognize your two-fer

- I appreciate your honesty about long posts - zoning out is perfectly natural (it's not like I'm different in some of my classes) - As for your suggestion, agreed. That is the one rule I was thinking about going into this - some kind of intro statement as a point of reference. I'm glad even still that you are understanding of the long-road strategy. One problem I have is it disrupts the flow of a good back and forth.

- I hope in time to contribute even a fraction of what each one of you has brought to the table. I plan to post my incomplete "strip party members" code - I need to read through my notes again, but it's coming.
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LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2014, 01:47:39 PM »
Here's an expanded version of the TNL table Square provided (from 7B528-7C3C8) Any values for levels below the character's original starting level were constructed via proportional averaging.

A .csv version is also attached for import into Excel (or the like) and an XML version is eventually to be constructed as well. I made this table first with http://tableizer.journalistopia.com/tableizer.php and then edited the resulting code:

LevelCecilKainRydiaTellahEdwardRosaYangPoromPalomCecilCidEdgeFuSoYa
136314450333231282823323137
265567689595756515142575567
3104891181429491908282709188107
4157135175215142137136124124109138133161
5234202249322225205203185185163206199241
6326282345448308286283258258233287277335
7443382467607410388383350350324390376455
8587506617805537514508463463438517498603
97636588001046690668661602602578672647784
1093180310181276872815806735735746819789956
11118610091276161310861035102993293294510369981209
121486124915782007133612941290116211621180128912411504
131834152719262464162415941593142914291451158315241847
142233184523252987195319381942173617361763191818482238
152688220627773582232723302339208520852117230122162685
163203261332874255274727732789247924792518273326333189
173780306938595009321732703293292129212967321830993754
184424357744955848374038253855341334133468375636184382
195139414052006779432044404480396039604024435541945080
205927476059768320495751185168456245624636534551476235
216794544168289266565758635925522452245309612058687107
2277416185776010289642166786754594859486045696766538059
2387746995877411391725375667656673767376847789175099096
24989678759875125788156853186377593759377188893843710220
2511111882611065138519132957596998520852086619978938411366
261242298521234915215101841070110844952195219678111491040412661
2713833109561373116647113161191412078105971059710773124091149714052
2815347121411521318230125301321613402117521175211947137611266815549
2916969134101680019887138301461014820129901299013206152101392017148
3018702147641849421648152171609916335143311431114550167571525318856
3120550162082030023518166961768717950157201572015983184061667320671
3222517177442222225499182691937619669172201722017507201611818122604
3324606193752426227595199382117121496188121881219127220251977924656
3426821211052642529810217082307323432205012050120844240012147226830
3529165229342871332147235812508725482222882228822661260922326129130
3631643248683113134609255592721627648241762417624582283032515031560
3734257269083368337200276472946229934261692616926608306352714134124
3837013290583637139924298463182932344282692826928744330932923636823
3939913313203920042784321603432034880304803048030992356803144039665
4042916336974217245783345913693837545328023280233354383983375342643
4146161361924529248925371433968640343352413524135834412523618045781
4249517388084856452213398184256843277377983779838434442443872349064
4353032415485199055651426204558746351404764047641157473794138452501
4456710444155557559243455514874649567432784327844007506584416756099
4560555474115932162992486145204852929462074620746986540864707459856
4664570505406323366901518135549656440492664926650097576665010863780
4768759538046731570973551505909360103524585245853342614015327267874
4873126572067156975214586286284363922557855578556726652945656872140
4977675607507600079625622506675067900592505925060250693506000076583
5082408644378061084210660187081572039628556285563917735706356982243
5187331682718540488973699377504276344666056660567730779586727987176
5292446722559038693917740097943480817705027050271693825187113392303
5397758763929555899046782378399585462745487454875807872537513397627
54103269806851009251043638262388728902827874678746800779216679282103152
55108985851351064891098728717193636952808309983099845049726083583108881
5611490889747112255115577918849872210046087610830998909210254088038114819
57121042945231182271214809676410398910582492282922829384310800792651120969
581273909946612440712758510181510944011137697118971189876111366697424127334
59133958104580130800133896107040115080117120102120102120103848119520102360133920
60140748109865137408140415112440120909123057107291107291109106125571107461140728
61147763115327144236147148118020126933129193112634112634114540131824112730147763
62155009120967151288154097123783133154135529118152118152120152138281118171155029
63162487126789158566161265129730139576142069123847123847125944144947123786162529
64170203132795166075168657135866146201148817129723129723131920151823129577170267
65178160138988173817176275142193153032155775135783135783138083158914135548178247
66186361145371181797184123148713160074162948142028142028144434166223141700186473
67194810151947190019192204155431167328170337148463148463150978173753148038194947
68203511158719198485200523162349174799177947155089155089157717181507154564203675
69212468165690207200209083169470182490185780161910161910161910164654189490161280
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Grimoire LD

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2014, 02:36:15 PM »
That is really cool. It's interesting to know what Exp. amounts were supposed to get you from Level 1 to 10, in many cases.
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LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2014, 02:51:35 PM »
I was happy when I looked back at that table - everything looks right - straight down to Tellah's distributed gluttony  :wink:

For extra fun - look at the data for Palom & Porom - you will find the result to which I allude to be quite self-evident but yet the 'why' is just simply beyond my comprehension - I got nothin'   :eek:
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 03:05:52 PM by LordGarmonde »
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chillyfeez

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2014, 04:46:41 PM »
Are you talking about the fact that their TNL is identical except for two levels?
Definitely bizarre. I can't help thinking that they could have made them identcal and found some way to have both characters use the same TNL data, thereby saving an astronomical amount of space.
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Grimoire LD

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2014, 05:21:42 PM »
That was exactly what I was about to say, hehe. It looks like a coding glitch (someone forgot to program Yang's HP growth from 60 and above! So they definitely weren't 100% on the ball here.

I think Tellah has the longest level-ups because he's supposed to be old, I love that about FFIV is that "aging" is shown through Tellah's diminishing Strength and Vitality and in the end he doesn't get that much smarter. It shows a man well past his prime and that continued exertion could do more harm than good. I did love that they took that approach because it adds a bit more unique character to the characters.
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LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2014, 06:57:14 PM »
Quote from: Grimoire LD on January 15, 2014, 05:21:42 PM
That was exactly what I was about to say, hehe. It looks like a coding glitch (someone forgot to program Yang's HP growth from 60 and above! So they definitely weren't 100% on the ball here.

I think Tellah has the longest level-ups because he's supposed to be old, I love that about FFIV is that "aging" is shown through Tellah's diminishing Strength and Vitality and in the end he doesn't get that much smarter. It shows a man well past his prime and that continued exertion could do more harm than good. I did love that they took that approach because it adds a bit more unique character to the characters.

I forgot about the Yang problem - but, "there's an app for that" - that patch is safe amongst the others  :laugh:

Agreed about Tellah - I know some translations (probably J2E - maybe some other fan-hacks) hint at Tellah and the Mysidian Elder having a long history together - consider my sharing an idea to throw him in somehow Idea # 692 in the What-Else-Can-We-Do? file  :finger:

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chillyfeez

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2014, 07:04:29 PM »
Meaning you want Elder to be a playable character? You could ditch FuSoYa...
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Grimoire LD

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2014, 07:31:27 PM »
The Elder is also playable for a whole one battle in The After Years and in the PSP release he even got a portrait! I always thought he was an interesting character and as I do love Tellah, I would very much enjoy seeing his buddy along with him there's an interesting story about Tellah from the FFIV Character Guide... here about a young Tellah. "When he was young, he was a famed wise man living in Mysidia, unraveling one ancient magical seal after another with his abilities. One day, however, he unleashed a magic beyond the limits his abilities to control, the effects of which ended up wounding many mages."

I really have to wonder if this spell he unleashed Was Meteo, hence why he knew of it and was searching for it at Mt. Ordeals.

It's surprising that no version of FFIV has actually discussed this part about Tellah, considering it can lend itself to some interesting story telling. Granted I'm pretty sure some of his story has been ret-conned by future releases. In The After Years he's referred to as a Sage who traveled the world, helping people and this is how he became known as a Sage which is what Palom's initial goal is in TAY. I guess it might be reasoned that he started his own journey of atonement after releasing destruction upon Mysidia.
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Pinkpuff

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2014, 08:03:45 PM »
Actually if you ask me, a prequel would be an interesting idea for a hack. A sort of "FF4 The Before Years" or something. Young Tellah, young Odin, maybe Palom & Porom's parents (a Time Mage and an Oracle might be interesting for them!), some original characters of course, explore some jobs from other FFs that we didn't get in any other version of FF4 like Geomancer, Mystic Knight, etc. maybe use some of those cool custom commands going on in the other thread...
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LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2014, 08:05:46 PM »
I'll buy that - that's the kind of back-story that even if ret-conned still feels right. "Unraveling one ancient magical after another with his abilities..." definitely building towards Meteo - Coincidentally a name which if given the space I still wouldn't change: to see a man put all of himself in to trying to kill someone and in trying shouts "METEOR" really just doesn't carry the same force behind it as "METEO" - That may be me though.

The other translation that FF2 will forever contribute to any and every project of mine: "For all those living on Earth...I will destroy you!" I thought that line awesome as a kid and I think it awesome now!

Thanks for the link too - I almost forgot about; it's been years since I first came across it (it's on this comp somewhere...) - And to think, I was passing by it daily as I kept returning to Thundaga for Level-Up data - lol

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