Library of the Ancients => Final Fantasy IV Research & Development => Topic started by: Deathlike2 on February 07, 2008, 12:09:46 AM
Title: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on February 07, 2008, 12:09:46 AM
Dispel only appears to remove only three statuses.. Berserk, Image, and Barrier.
Is that it?
The difference between this and the Black Hole attack is that it is simply Dispel+Reflect removal... as far as I can tell.
Edit: Updated post to include Barrier Status. Yes, the Black Hole attack does dispell Barrier for sure.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Phoenix on March 09, 2008, 05:01:04 AM
If you make Dispel ignore walls/reflect, it will dispel Reflect status. This makes think it was an oversight in the programming, since it does successfully remove the status.
Also, it dispels Stop (which is a bit strange, considering in FF games Dispel usually only removes positive statuses). So, positive statuses it appears not to dispel:
Haste Protect Shell Float
Statuses it does dispel (if you change the ignore walls bit):
Berserk Image Barrier Reflect (and Stop if Count-status is active)
Anyone have anything to add to these lists?
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 09, 2008, 05:09:14 AM
If you make Dispel ignore walls/reflect, it will dispel Reflect status. This makes think it was an oversight in the programming, since it does successfully remove the status.
That's interesting. I'm pretty sure that was the original intention, given the entire FF series.. even FF5+FF6 do this. FF4A
Quote
Also, it dispels Stop (which is a bit strange, considering in FF games Dispel usually only removes positive statuses). So, positive statuses it appears not to dispel:
It doesn't dispel Stop.. ever. I think you were testing with the bit being changed. Retest please. I've done this test before and it doesn't touch Stop...
Quote
Haste Slow Protect Shell Float
Haste/Slow/Protect/Shell use special algorithms... so it doesn't surprise me. Float on the other hand is a strange thing. For one, enemies don't have that status ever unless you reflect it onto them. Since Aerial weakness (Bow/Arrows+Boomerngs) is the part of Quake immunity and monsters never cast this spell, it makes you go :wtf:
Quote
Statuses it does dispel (if you change the ignore walls bit):
Berserk Image Barrier
That was pretty much my existing list. :tongue:
Quote
Reflect Stop Anyone have anything to add to these lists?
I'll have to try this myself though.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 09, 2008, 06:18:55 AM
Ok, I definately tested this, and I can confirm that Dispel not removing Reflect as a retarded oversight. However, I think I have an explanation.
Have you ever tried bouncing Holy/White off of Reflect and realize the Behemoth doesn't cast Storm on you? Well, this is probably the issue that's being experienced. Whatever is being reflected is changing oh so slightly (the game may be treated something reflected differently... but that in itself makes little sense).
However, I could not reproduce Dispel removing Stop in FF4ET (the spell should simply behave the same in theory). I'm using the staff that FuSoYa starts with that casts Dispel (it works just dandy as an equivalent). Perhaps the Stop effect didn't last long enough (I believe that the Spell Power is multiplied by the Spell Multiplier... but I personally can't tell and haven't really tested that (nor the Hourglass items either... I never really use items in this game).
:finger: to item magic.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Phoenix on March 09, 2008, 06:46:46 AM
I was doing it with the ignore wall bit set, but I retested with it not set (i.e. Dispel as normal) and it worked on Stop, too. Here was my test set-up: I fought Plague for the White Lance, waited for it to cast Count, and then cast Stop on Cecil. Then I used Dispel on him, and the count restarted. Without Dispel it wouldn't restart until after everyone was dead.
I just did another test, and it appears it's Count-specific. I did a test in a normal battle, and Dispel did not remove Stop. :whoa: Bizarre . . . Any ideas on why this would be occurring?
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 09, 2008, 06:53:44 AM
I was doing it with the ignore wall bit set, but I retested with it not set (i.e. Dispel as normal) and it worked on Stop, too. Here was my test set-up: I fought Plague for the White Lance, waited for it to cast Count, and then cast Stop on Cecil. Then I used Dispel on him, and the count restarted. Without Dispel it wouldn't restart until after everyone was dead.
I just did another test, and it appears it's Count-specific. I did a test in a normal battle, and Dispel did not remove Stop. :whoa: Bizarre . . . Any ideas on why this would be occurring?
I have don't have too many guesses on Squaresoft bugs. :tongue:
The only situation that even remotely mirrors this is ZeromusEG's attack behavior. One of his evil counters is using Count on a single target. Coincidentally, I believe he does Black Hole like the original (as part of his battle script). That's the only instance where your application of Stop is neutralized and screwed over.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Phoenix on March 09, 2008, 07:15:08 AM
Perhaps that's why. It makes sense, if that's the only time the programmers thought it would occur and the only way to fix it. Although why you would cast Stop on someone with Count (since there's no cure and they're going to die anyway) is beyond me. It'd be better to just let them die and revive them.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 09, 2008, 07:24:55 AM
Well, the one thing about Count that is interesting is when it is used during a back attack. The timer's text above the characters heads are reversed.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Phoenix on March 09, 2008, 08:22:36 AM
:happy: Ha, never saw that before. They must just mirror everything about the sprite, including the counter.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 09, 2008, 03:18:49 PM
:happy: Ha, never saw that before. They must just mirror everything about the sprite, including the counter.
You'll never normally see it... just play JCE's hack.. you'll find the Spirit monster series be the most evil idea conceived.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 09, 2008, 05:09:20 PM
I forgot about Barrier status. That's the status inflicted on you when you use the "stronger" Reflect item in FF4. You'll see it when Reflect wears off.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Phoenix on March 12, 2008, 09:28:10 PM
The reason Blk.Hole removes reflect is because the spell ignore walls. However, it's effect byte (value 2A) is different from that of Dispel (value 10), so it probably has some differences. Are you sure Blk.Hole doesn't remove any of the other positive statuses (Haste, Protect, Shell, Float)? Any idea what the difference might be?
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 12, 2008, 09:31:40 PM
The reason Blk.Hole removes reflect is because the spell ignore walls. However, it's effect byte (value 2A) is different from that of Dispel (value 10), so it probably has some differences. Are you sure Blk.Hole doesn't remove any of the other positive statuses (Haste, Protect, Shell, Float)? Any idea what the difference might be?
Haste/Slow affect the ATB only (somehow). Protect/Shell only affect the damage algos for their associated boosts. Float is anyone's guess.
Black Hole is simply a multitargetable, unblockable, and boss compatible dispel.
Edit: Black Hole does remove Float. I guess that's the only slight difference other than Reflect. :lame:
For a thought, but did you know the form Zeromus engages your party in (the one that requires the Crystal before starting the real battle) casts some sort of Dispel/Black Hole on everyone during that sequence? That also removes Float from your party.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Phoenix on March 12, 2008, 10:56:17 PM
He casts Disrupt (spell 73 -- different from the instant kill Disrupt), but the name is not shown.
Well, at least there's some difference. It's one possible reason they have two different spell effect bytes.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 12, 2008, 11:10:53 PM
He casts Disrupt (spell 73 -- different from the instant kill Disrupt), but the name is not shown.
Well, at least there's some difference. It's one possible reason they have two different spell effect bytes.
I guess it could be possible to remove say Haste/Slow or Protect/Shell.. (in order to make the battle fair for the boss).. but it's hard to tell and those aren't really "statuses" by definition. If you've looked over Entroper's FF4A docs, those are a number of statuses that exist other than the obvious status inflictions:
Count Jump Twin Charging (Yang's Build Up command) Parry (defending for a turn) Egg (monster spawning) Stop (well, it's not inflictably by weapons) Too Heavy (Magnetic Cave) Critical (CurHP < 1/4 MaxHP) Cover (target that was targeted with the Cover command) Image (1 image - also used by FF4's Mist Ring-Dragon combo) Image (2 images) Barrier ("stronger" item Reflect status) HP Leak Hide
If you have the time, you can test against a number of these that actually can apply to you.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Phoenix on March 13, 2008, 04:19:50 AM
Yeah, I've considered testing those, but haven't had time yet. Maybe for my next mini-project.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: odditude on March 22, 2008, 10:26:42 AM
Well, the one thing about Count that is interesting is when it is used during a back attack. The timer's text above the characters heads are reversed.
I did see this before on SNES, although I don't remember if it was FF2US or FF3US.
I'm pretty sure I got ambushed by a FatalEye, though.
More Count weirdness - In FF2US (no clue which version, I lost that cart a decade ago), if you hold down the confirm button (to keep choosing Fight), Count will reset itself upon passing 00. This makes the battle with Plague virtually impossible to lose.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Phoenix on March 22, 2008, 06:42:48 PM
Quote
More Count weirdness - In FF2US (no clue which version, I lost that cart a decade ago), if you hold down the confirm button (to keep choosing Fight), Count will reset itself upon passing 00. This makes the battle with Plague virtually impossible to lose.
Didn't work for me, emulating FF2us through SNES9x.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: odditude on March 24, 2008, 11:54:09 AM
It's possible that instead of the Count resetting, it simply stayed at 00. Either way, characters simply did not die. In the other thread, it is mentioned that entering commands slightly alters the speed at which the countdown occurs - could this be related?
Just in case there was any confusion, what I'd do is simply hold Confirm down the entire battle. Boring, but nobody would die.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on March 24, 2008, 12:01:59 PM
I wonder if this has anything to do with battle speed though...
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Cleteromagos on April 27, 2008, 06:40:40 AM
Incidentally, I’m very sure that in the SFC version of FFIV, Dispel would remove Reflect if Reflect’d off a battler of the opposing side.
Is this conviction unfounded? I did actually test this a few years back, and was fairly sure it wasn’t just the Reflective barrier wearing off … <__<;;
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on April 27, 2008, 08:53:47 AM
Incidentally, I’m very sure that in the SFC version of FFIV, Dispel would remove Reflect if Reflect’d off a battler of the opposing side.
Is this conviction unfounded? I did actually test this a few years back, and was fairly sure it wasn’t just the Reflective barrier wearing off … <__<;;
Hmmm... I actually forgot to do the Evil/Wicked Mask test. Dispel does actually remove Wall after it is reflected. I set my ATB to a speed of 1, plus set it to Active, so the game updates a relatively slow sometimes. You're correct. This Dispel version sucks though (it should ignore Reflect so it works more like the other Dispels in other games).
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Cleteromagos on April 27, 2008, 11:10:08 PM
I don’t know about that. Making Dispel ignore Reflect is silly when there’s already a mechanic for making spells hit Reflect’d foes. ;D
I just remembered I made this “proof” a while back for a discussion on GFAQs. A little-known fact is that a TIME PARADOX is caused by Yang and Edge’s presence in the same party …!
… :lame:
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Phoenix on April 30, 2008, 07:50:30 AM
Time Paradox? Meaning what?
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Cleteromagos on April 30, 2008, 08:37:42 AM
Well, normally, Yang and Edge are never in the party together. This appears to have been a file I manipulated with cheat codes. (Not a big deal, just jumping the shark, I guess.)
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Odbarc on April 30, 2008, 04:11:10 PM
Cheating is fun. Yang and Edge in the same party would be pretty cool. Let's get rid of Cecil. :D
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Cleteromagos on April 30, 2008, 05:08:51 PM
Yeah, that’s a great — wait a sec! Oooh, you’re trying to trick me! >:(
Instant game overs in scripted battles aren’t really … good. :finger:
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on April 30, 2008, 05:30:33 PM
Instant game overs in scripted battles aren’t really … good. :finger:
I blame that solely on FuSoYa and Golbez's inability to deal 9999 Meteor damage consistantly.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on April 30, 2008, 10:43:09 PM
I'll post this although it may have been mentioned already.
Dispel does not remove Stop when Stop status is inflicted on the characters. It only gets removed if Count status is involved... and Dispel does work on enemies with Stop status... which means someone really fucked up here.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Phoenix on May 01, 2008, 01:36:58 AM
Quote
Well, normally, Yang and Edge are never in the party together. This appears to have been a file I manipulated with cheat codes. (Not a big deal, just jumping the shark, I guess.)
Oh, I thought Deathlike2 meant there was some sort of gameplay error. That would be :lame: , although not too surprising.
Title: Re: Dispel - Ill Conceived?
Post by: Deathlike2 on May 01, 2008, 11:39:14 AM
Well, normally, Yang and Edge are never in the party together. This appears to have been a file I manipulated with cheat codes. (Not a big deal, just jumping the shark, I guess.)
Oh, I thought Deathlike2 meant there was some sort of gameplay error. That would be :lame: , although not too surprising.
"Ok". :tongue:
An interesting bug.. using Dispel on a character inflicted with Stop apparently removes the Stop timer, but not the status. That's perma-stop folks (until Stop is inflicted on the character again).
This only happens in FF4 and FF4ET (and subsequently FF2US).