øAslickproductions.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5f0fck550j2m4m2fpbtkj2vkm1&topic=197.msg5726e:/My Web Sites/Slick Productions - FFIV Message Board/slickproductions.org/forum/indexda4d.htmlslickproductions.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5f0fck550j2m4m2fpbtkj2vkm1&action=profile;u=6;area=showposts;start=2235e:/My Web Sites/Slick Productions - FFIV Message Board/slickproductions.org/forum/indexda4d.html.zx¡h^ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÈ0P.9]OKtext/htmlISO-8859-1gzip0|Ö9]ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿWed, 11 Mar 2020 08:44:31 GMT0ó°° ®0®P®€§²ð®¡h^ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÆ/9] Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity

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bond697

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2008, 11:57:07 AM »
granted, the topic of discussion is off of ebmid, but i was reading xkcd and this comic just applies to a good portion of what he says:

http://xkcd.com/169/
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vivify93

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2008, 03:06:55 PM »
Everyone clap for Embid.
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=930370&topic=44344218
Quote from: embid2
I don't know if he can equip it in the GBA version of the game. But he can still equip it in the SNES and PSX versions of the game. I think that in the GBA version of the game, Gau can't equip the Merit Award anymore. But does the Equip Any Weapon bug work in the GBA version? And even if it doesn't, is there any other way to have Gau equip the Kazekiri in the GBA version? I suppose you could always use codes or hacking or something like that.
:sad: It's official: I have lost all faith in humanity.
Oh, and look, even Vegh points it out to him that the damn glitch doesn't work anymore. :sad:
Hacking is hard. :sad:

Deathlike2

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2008, 04:46:37 PM »
granted, the topic of discussion is off of ebmid, but i was reading xkcd and this comic just applies to a good portion of what he says:

http://xkcd.com/169/

Where do I sign up for cutting the other guy's hand off?

Everyone clap for Embid.
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=930370&topic=44344218
Quote from: embid2
I don't know if he can equip it in the GBA version of the game. But he can still equip it in the SNES and PSX versions of the game. I think that in the GBA version of the game, Gau can't equip the Merit Award anymore. But does the Equip Any Weapon bug work in the GBA version? And even if it doesn't, is there any other way to have Gau equip the Kazekiri in the GBA version? I suppose you could always use codes or hacking or something like that.
:sad: It's official: I have lost all faith in humanity.
Oh, and look, even Vegh points it out to him that the damn glitch doesn't work anymore. :sad:

IIRC, the PSX version removed the Merit Award option for Gau... in the GBA version, on top of that, Gogo can't equip the Merit Award either (or was it the other way around?). There are many reasons (overpowered for one) that this option is prevented. That shouldn't surprise anyone anyways, the weapon was intended to suck the way it is.
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2008, 09:08:45 PM »
granted, the topic of discussion is off of ebmid, but i was reading xkcd and this comic just applies to a good portion of what he says:

http://xkcd.com/169/

That's one of my favorites.  :laugh:

bond697

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2008, 10:35:50 PM »
IIRC, the PSX version removed the Merit Award option for Gau... in the GBA version, on top of that, Gogo can't equip the Merit Award either (or was it the other way around?). There are many reasons (overpowered for one) that this option is prevented. That shouldn't surprise anyone anyways, the weapon was intended to suck the way it is.

you're right the first time, gau then gogo.
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Lenophis

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2008, 12:34:51 PM »
Here you go Deathlike:

Quote from: ebmid2
It's true that it's unlikely that the Tempest will trigger Wind Slash 16/16 times. However, when I say that it has the potential to do more damage than Ultima, that assumes that it will only get Wind Slash 50% of the time (which is the actual rate). Even if it triggers Wind Slash less than 50% of the time, it still has the potential to do more damage than Ultima.

And now for the random table:

Code: [Select]
Random Number Table

C0/FD00: 07 B6 F0 1F 55 5B 37 E3 AE 4F B2 5E 99 F6 77 CB
C0/FD10: 60 8F 43 3E A7 4C 2D 88 C7 68 D7 D1 C2 F2 C1 DD
C0/FD20: AA 93 16 F7 26 04 36 A1 46 4E 56 BE 6C 6E 80 D5
C0/FD30: B5 8E A4 9E E7 CA CE 21 FF 0F D4 8C E6 D3 98 47
C0/FD40: F4 0D 15 ED C4 E4 35 78 BA DA 27 61 AB B9 C3 7D
C0/FD50: 85 FC 95 6B 30 AD 86 00 8D CD 7E 9F E5 EF DB 59
C0/FD60: EB 05 14 C9 24 2C A0 3C 44 69 40 71 64 3A 74 7C
C0/FD70: 84 13 94 9C 96 AC B4 BC 03 DE 54 DC C5 D8 0C B7
C0/FD80: 25 0B 01 1C 23 2B 33 3B 97 1B 62 2F B0 E0 73 CC
C0/FD90: 02 4A FE 9B A3 6D 19 38 75 BD 66 87 3F AF F3 FB
C0/FDA0: 83 0A 12 1A 22 53 90 CF 7A 8B 52 5A 49 6A 72 28
C0/FDB0: 58 8A BF 0E 06 A2 FD FA 41 65 D2 4D E2 5C 1D 45
C0/FDC0: 1E 09 11 B3 5F 29 79 39 2E 2A 51 D9 5D A6 EA 31
C0/FDD0: 81 89 10 67 F5 A9 42 82 70 9D 92 57 E1 3D F1 F9
C0/FDE0: EE 08 91 18 20 B1 A5 BB C6 48 50 9A D6 7F 7B E9
C0/FDF0: 76 DF 32 6F 34 A8 D0 B8 63 C8 C0 EC 4B E8 17 F8

In order for a Wind Slash cast to succeed, the result must be at most #$7F.

Code: [Select]
(Wind Slash - Tempest)
C2/3F9F: 20 5A 4B     JSR $4B5A   (Random Number Function: 0 to 255)
C2/3FA2: C9 80        CMP #$80
C2/3FA4: B0 10        BCS $3FB6   (50% chance exit function)
C2/3FA6: 9C A6 11     STZ $11A6   (Clear Battle Power, this is for the weapon strike)
C2/3FA9: A9 65        LDA #$65    (Wind Slash spell number)
C2/3FAB: 80 03        BRA $3FB0

(Magicite)
C2/3FAD: 20 DC 37     JSR $37DC   (Picks random Esper, not Odin or Raiden)
C2/3FB0: 8D 00 34     STA $3400   (Save the spell number)
C2/3FB3: EE 70 3A     INC $3A70   (Increment the number of attacks remaining)
C2/3FB6: 60           RTS

Trounce him with all your might. :happy:

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I.S.T.

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2008, 01:35:31 PM »
I would love to see this.

Deathlike2

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2008, 03:16:28 PM »
I'll bide my time first. I need to educate myself with the algo first.

If you abuse the useless Genji Glove+Offering+dual Tempest+Quick, on average, 8 Wind Slashes would occur max, which is worse than the 5 Ultimas if you do a Gem Box+Quick abuse (Quin-Ultima) attack.

Wind Slash doesn't ignore magic defense.. the initial power is 48, though I don't think it is affected by the multitarget power reduction modifier (of 1/2)
Ultima ignores magic defense,  initial power is 150, and is always affected by the multitarget power reduction modifier.

Even if the monster had 0 magic defense, the spell power of Wind Slash is still weaker than a split Ultima of 75, Wind Slash being 48/75 = 64% weaker on same magic power and level. This gets worse over time based on obvious math.

In sum, Wind Slash on average is never going to be as powerful as Ultima, but I could bother to take a look at optimal level+magic power conditions for Wind Slash... but that would require a lot of work to even remotely match Ultima (I'd have to check how much it would take to even make them a fair comparison).

I mean, the magic defense algo is primarily magic defense/255 and once that is reached, Wind Slash is virtually irrelevent. That doesn't even factor in the elemental property, although Ultima is Runicable... I'd hazard to say that there are more enemies resistant to that elemental than the enemies that have the Runic ability.

It doesn't help if Wind Slash is used 8x if magic defense = 254 in the first place.

Edit: To expand on a related idea..

Quin-Ultima is 5x75 (assuming always split) = 375 (before multiplying level and magic power)
Hex-Tempest is 16x48 (since split is not applied) = 768 (before multiplier level and magic power)

So, if all goes perfectly, Hex-Tempest is better, BUT requires so much luck to cause, ebmid is delusional.

So, these things hurt Tempest's potential, in the order of things are likely to occur:
1) 16 (8 on average) Wind Slashes needs a prayer to occur
2) The chances of Ultima killing one or more of its targets to eventually remove the Split damage modifier, which starts to favor Ultima more
3) Enemy Magic Defense > 0, Ultima cuts through any magic defense like butter

Things that can't be compared against, because of the number of monsters that expose it, but still notable:
1) Runic vs Ultima - too few enemies expose this, and you can control your own Runic command too
2) Wind elemental - you can work around it somewhat (requires Tools -> Debilitator which has a 1 of 8 chance of doing what you want it to do, but is single targeted and won't work against monsters that rotate elemental weakness)

Let's not forget you could do better with Cyan than giving him very little evade or magic evade to survive. The fucking Retainer would rape Cyan on Tradeoff.

What hasn't really been considered...

The number of attacks an Oct-Tempest (using average here) deals is far more than Quin-Ultima, but requires some consideration. Quin-Ultima has the early edge by design because of the magic defense and high magic power (150 is a lot after all). Ultima plateaus pretty quickly, and Wind Slash/Tempest requires a lot of level ups and Magic Power boosts (which is terrible for the low level game player).

Note: I'm more of a Merton/Meltdown guy, since that provides far more benefits for me than Ultima or Tempest/Wind Slash under most instances.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 04:08:00 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Lenophis

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2008, 02:09:29 AM »
Wind Slash doesn't ignore magic defense.. the initial power is 48, though I don't think it is affected by the multitarget power reduction modifier (of 1/2)
It has "no split damage" checked.

Quote
So, these things hurt Tempest's potential, in the order of things are likely to occur:
1) 16 (8 on average) Wind Slashes needs a prayer to occur
2) The chances of Ultima killing one or more of its targets to eventually remove the Split damage modifier, which starts to favor Ultima more
3) Enemy Magic Defense > 0, Ultima cuts through any magic defense like butter
Well, the castings of Ultima are separate, which is why they are removed. Tempest is all one giant round of fluff. It's severe overkill just like Genji Glove + Offering + 2x Atma Weapon (or Atma Weapon + Valiant Knife), the Tempest version just takes longer.

Quote
Note: I'm more of a Merton/Meltdown guy, since that provides far more benefits for me than Ultima or Tempest/Wind Slash under most instances.
The thing that works against ebmid2 in this case is that most monsters just don't have that many HP. The ones that do are in too small a group so this potential can't ever be realistically realized.

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Deathlike2

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2008, 10:01:26 AM »
Quote
So, these things hurt Tempest's potential, in the order of things are likely to occur:
1) 16 (8 on average) Wind Slashes needs a prayer to occur
2) The chances of Ultima killing one or more of its targets to eventually remove the Split damage modifier, which starts to favor Ultima more
3) Enemy Magic Defense > 0, Ultima cuts through any magic defense like butter
Well, the castings of Ultima are separate, which is why they are removed. Tempest is all one giant round of fluff. It's severe overkill just like Genji Glove + Offering + 2x Atma Weapon (or Atma Weapon + Valiant Knife), the Tempest version just takes longer.

Yea, it could probably compete with FF7's Knights of the Round for wasting my time.

Quote
Quote
Note: I'm more of a Merton/Meltdown guy, since that provides far more benefits for me than Ultima or Tempest/Wind Slash under most instances.
The thing that works against ebmid2 in this case is that most monsters just don't have that many HP. The ones that do are in too small a group so this potential can't ever be realistically realized.

I'm not even factoring that argument... I just like Merton for elemental shield abuse (well, the Flame Shield obviously).

I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, but the most frequent (mean) magic defense value used is 150, so damage reduction is 150/255 = 58% reduction of damage... the common range is like 100 (maybe 120?) to 180 (maybe 200?) or so. Even in a nice 100, that's still 100/255 = 39% reduction.. which completely favors Ultima, since that would requires many many more levels and magic power to make it even comparable. Effectively, Tempest has to work at at least twice as hard (on top of its weak initial spell power) to produce the damage Ultima does (if the damage were uncapped).. which is almost 4x required..

Yea, math works against ebmid again.
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #70 on: July 20, 2008, 07:57:02 PM »
I'm not even factoring that argument... I just like Merton for elemental shield abuse (well, the Flame Shield obviously).

Meltdown is my favorite healing spell. :happy:

It made it into FF4 DS...kind of, Rubicante's Glare/Scorch/Inferno skill works just like it and you get it as an augment for your characters after defeating him. Need to get a few cursed rings (They seem much more common in the DS version, I ended up with three my last playthrough without really trying) and the right equipment to fully take advantage of it.

bond697

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2008, 07:30:55 PM »
this thread is a mix of ridiculous and hilarious at the same time:

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=554041&topic=44419330
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I.S.T.

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2008, 07:57:44 PM »
It's too stupid to be hilarious. :sad:

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2008, 08:01:11 PM »
Sorry to double post, buuuuuuuuuuuuut....

http://www.gamefaqs.com/features/top10/1301.html

This list is retarded as aside from Fable, it completely ignores all RPGs on PC.

Hell, he doesn't even acknowledge Fable being on the PC!

Deathlike2

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Re: Gamefaqs + eternal stupidity
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2008, 08:03:50 PM »
this thread is a mix of ridiculous and hilarious at the same time:

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=554041&topic=44419330

ebmid fails at debating. End of story.
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