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Author Topic: Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke  (Read 3459 times)

Deathlike2

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Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke
« on: March 02, 2008, 01:19:00 AM »
Reference pics:

Level 23 Cid

Stats:


"Ideal" Related Equip:


Different Stats:


Full Silver Equip:


Yang at Level 31 (for a reference)

Stats:


What Yang Usually Has:


Argument to be posted, followed by some research.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2008, 01:43:11 AM »
The strongest monster in the Magnetic Cave is the Ogre.
Relevent Stats:
5x 60 @ 80%

The damage range that the Ogre deals by default is 300 to 450.
With an 80% hit rate, the damage given on that average w/o considering defense becomes 240 to 360.

On testing damage range, 100% of your attack power is what you see on the stat screen,
150% of the attack power is the maximum, and 125% is the average.

Let's compare strictly Cid with my ideal equipment vs Cid with the Silver Equipment for the moment.

If the enemy attacks my ideal Cid...

1 = defense multiplier, 4 = number of attacks left by the monster that is unevadable, .70 is evade rate factor (1.00-.30), .80 is the monster's hit rate
(1 * (60-25) * .70 + 4 * (60-25)) * .80 = 131 points of damage taken at minimum on average
(1 * (75-25) * .70 + 4 * (75-25)) * .80 = 188 points of damage taken at average on average
(1 * (90-25) * .70 + 4 * (90-25)) * .80 = 244 points of damage taken at max on average

Note: Remember to truncate where applicable.

If the enemy attacks Mythril/Silver Cid...

(5 * (60-40)) * .8 = 80 points of damage taken at minimum on average
(5 * (75-40)) * .8 = 140 points of damage taken at average on average
(5 * (90-40)) * .8 = 200 points of damage taken at max on average

So, the difference isn't as significant as it seems.
Sure you take approximately 48 points less damage on average with the full Silver/Mythril set,
but damage is not as significant as you would think, especially when Cid gains a ton of HP per level
at about the same pace Yang is.

Now, onto the Cid attacking the Ogre on my next post.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 02:32:35 AM by Deathlike2 »
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Deathlike2

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Re: Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2008, 02:15:23 AM »
Relevent Stats For This Test:
Defense = 2
Monsters have 0 evade.

The damage range my ideal Cid does is much nicer...
5x68 @ 80%

.80 is Cid's hit rate on average
5 * (68-2)* .80 = 264 points of damage given at minimum on average
5 * (85-2)* .80 = 332 points of damage given at average on average
5 * (102-2)* .80 = 400 points of damage given at max on average

The damage range of Silver/Mythril Cid is mediocre...
4x66 @ 80%

4 * (66-2) * .80 = 204 points of damage given at minimum on average
4 * (82-2 )* .80 = 256 points of damage given at average on average
4 * (99-2) * .80 = 310 points of damage given at max on avarage

The difference in damage here is HUGE. The gap between the minimum is 60 points, and the max is 90 points.
The ideal Cid is able to take out the occasional Hell Needle (or Swordrat in FF2US),
but the Silver/Mythril Cid is still just struggling to kill anything in the Magnetic Cave.

So, take that for what it is worth. Instead of spending 17000 on a Silver Armor and taking 48 points less damage on average,
you could spend approximately 4x less with a Kenpogi (Karate Robe in FF2US) and a Twist Headband for dealing 76 points more damage on average
and actually be able to kill some monsters in one blow.

I mean, seriously.

Btw, the only time you find a Spirit/Ghoul monster to take advantage of the property of the armor, you would have lost Cid and picked up Edge.
(The Ghost Knight aka the Blademan in FF2US from the Tower of Babil via Cave Eblan is the first Spirit monster you would meet...)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 02:33:43 AM by Deathlike2 »
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Deathlike2

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Re: Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2008, 09:14:39 AM »
Cid @ level 25, post Magnetic Cave:





Cecil at some high level, I forget how high...





Cid @ level 28, during Tower of Zot:





Cecil at the same place:





People who continue to say that Cid sucks is ignorant. Sure he takes a crapload of damage, but that's what leveling up and massive HP growth is for. He competes well against Cecil at lower levels too.
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Re: Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2008, 09:19:31 AM »
The problem with Cid is not his damage; he typically equals Cecil, or almost.  It's not even his crappy defense (which is crappy).  It's his speed.  Cid is slower than molasses running uphill.  By the time he gets to take an action, Cecil and Yang have already cleaned house.

Deathlike2

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Re: Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2008, 09:31:46 AM »
The problem with Cid is not his damage; he typically equals Cecil, or almost.  It's not even his crappy defense (which is crappy).  It's his speed.  Cid is slower than molasses running uphill.  By the time he gets to take an action, Cecil and Yang have already cleaned house.

Well, by comparison, Tellah's the suckiest thing since the lollipop.

I've noted his speed trouble, but I've never had that as an issue since he almost always goes 3rd for me, and just when I need him the most. He still goes in turn for me and I personally don't mind.
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Re: Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2008, 12:18:09 PM »
Well, by comparison, Tellah's the suckiest thing since the lollipop.

This we knew.  :)

Cid usually gets in one attack, sometimes it's useful, sometimes not.  He's more useful in the magnetic cave since Cecil is forced to suck, he just goes painfully slowly versus the ogres in there.

Deathlike2

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Re: Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2008, 12:31:05 PM »
Well, by comparison, Tellah's the suckiest thing since the lollipop.

This we knew.  :)

Cid usually gets in one attack, sometimes it's useful, sometimes not.

Ironically.. Tellah's finest hours post-twins leaving. He's actually on par with Cid by this time IMO....

Cid's attack is mainly powered by his Strength. Instead of complaining/focusing about his Tellah-ish Agility (I've gotten to used to that friggen old man) that improving his attack multiplier makes him far more viable. The Headband increases Str by 5 and the Kenpogi increases Str by 3.. which is simply +1 to the attack multiplier. He instantly becomes right up there with Cecil in the attack multiplier department... so his damage output becomes far more tangible than his early level crappiness.

Quote
He's more useful in the magnetic cave since Cecil is forced to suck, he just goes painfully slowly versus the ogres in there.

Try Holy arrows so Cecil is a decent fighter (not great mind you, but it increases his overall damage potential against most of the enemies)... you could do the same for Cid I guess but I dunno.. the hammer has a nicer hit rate.  :tongue:
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Re: Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2008, 07:02:48 PM »
Yeah, the problem is the bow hit rate is dismal.  And FF4A of course has that stupid bug, so you can't put Cecil in the back unless you want him to do no useful amount of damage whatsoever.  It's a huge shame, because Cecil in the back row does a great job covering Tellah.

Sometimes I go through the cave with Cecil in the back row decked out in full silver gear.  He just soaks up damage while the rest of the party fights.

Deathlike2

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Re: Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2008, 07:15:06 PM »
Sometimes I go through the cave with Cecil in the back row decked out in full silver gear.  He just soaks up damage while the rest of the party fights.

I actually have an argument against buying any of the Silver set of heavy equipment, except the Silver Gauntlet for Cid.

If you plug in any of the numbers against the attack or magic algos, you will find a minor difference overall.

Factor that and the loss of magic power for Cecil's auxilary healing and Spirit protection is useless at this point in the game... no reason to waste 17000 GP here. You will find more undead monsters (3 new undead monsters total) before you finally battle a Spirit monster.
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Re: Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2008, 01:09:18 AM »
I can recall getting to that point in the game and thinking, do I need to spend all my money on this stuff when it only offers a small benefit?  And the answer was always, what else am I going to spend it on?  Especially if you find the free stuff lying around in Silvera.

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Re: Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2008, 04:16:20 AM »
That's my reasoning as well, if I have the cash I buy it, if not I don't worry about not picking it up.

Deathlike2

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Re: Cid Doesn't Suck and Why Spending 4x More Money Is A Joke
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2008, 04:48:00 AM »
Well, the game does allow for subtle better choices, but not by price.. but by actual value.

For instance, a Headband has far more value to me than a Mythril/Silver Helmet. A Wizard Hat is a better value than the Mythril/Silver Helmet. The Gaea Helmet (aka Triangle Hat or whatever in FF4) is better than the Paladin Helmet (aka Light Helmet). A Sorceror's Robe has a better value than Diamond Armor is for Cecil. The Diamond Ring is completely overrated as an upgrade, unless you're Edge. The Rune Ring actually helps Yang's Build Up command. Stuff like that actually makes cumulative subtle improvements without losing too much defense. Trading defense for other attributes is beneficial (I mean, why the hell do you have Blink for?)... unless your defense multiplier sucks.

Well, that's my take on it anyways.
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