You don't have to point out that when I start writing stuff out my brain runs like a dog that broke the leash - everybody knows :wink:
"A Few Words..."
- "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! - Thank you!"
I was driving home one evening, thinking aloud through things I agree/disagree with regarding how topics in mathematics can be built up from one to the next and how similar step-wise thinking may prove to be an optimal strategy in many problem solving situations. I got home looked at my white board at the same formulas with the same notes scrawled off to the side, and the same terms connected by double-headed arrows and thought 'I want another whiteboard' - I didn't want to erase what I had - what if tomorrow had I see it again "it" would have hit me - or if a friend was visiting as asked, quite reasonably, "what the hell is that?" - Next thing I knew it was 2:30 in the morning and I was here laying out my proposal which I'm pretty sure looking back now I could have gotten away with naming: "Wow...I need to get way more sleep..."
"What; There are Rules Here? No-No-No There Aren't Any Rules Here"
Is there a better response to an argument when you tell someone: "I'm going to beat you with a crowbar until you go away..."
The "Rules"
Simple - "Be excellent to each other" - "Party on, dude!"
Seriously:
If a post is not a direct follow up on the previous post just try to make sure that the substance contained therein is clear - this will help everyone - especially me when I add links to the ToC.
If helpful/productive notes may be added in posts to regarding future posts/followups - Please remove notes when no longer necessary with tag of: "Notes Removed by XXX on YY/YY/YY" - or Equivalent (Added 1/16/14)
"What Was I Thinking?"
AKA The Original Post
I had an idea I hope will be beneficial in more ways than one - but if not then I will know that. :) I'm sure everyone has noticed my tendency (or if you will: compulsion) to go on-and-on-and-on in many of my posts. I have concluded that in this regard though I would rather have only concise posts to ask that of myself is actually impossible. In fact, this post will end up helping to prove my point. It's a perfect storm with me that leaves me no choice but to expound - even about expounding.
Few things about me to illustrate where I'm coming from. I'm a talker. (duh) This only applies if it is a subject of interest but I definitely go on and on. I'm also a big why/how kind of guy - I gotta know what's behind the curtain. Those two lead me to teaching which I love very much - if someone wants to know I want to help them understand. I'm happy to have run into others of that mindset on the Forum. Lastly (on a sadder note) I am in a state often where I am sick such that I have no usable voice. Tracing back when posts - and E-Mail, and IMs, etc. started to grow in length I've found my inability to to actually talk with people to be the catalyst. Up against all that I really think short posts are just simply against my prime programming.
So I had an idea: What if I had a thread where I could go on and on about whatever (mathematical aspects of modeling the experience table and replacement schema comes to mind) that was separate from the rest. Just like I'd use one of my whiteboards to sketch out whatever comes to mind (frequently to find the holes) I want to have a place to really just go-for-broke with ideas and concepts. Then, like writing down the answer I could take the novel-length post and pull out the punchline and post that wherever it is appropriate.
At first I was thinking that I'm just reinventing "Apropos of Nothing" - but I feel this and that can function well together serving different goals. I see "Apropos" as a place to have discussions with each other about ideas and concepts - direct back-and-forth. This thread, on the other hand, is more you and The Drawing Board - a place to work out ideas (even stuff not even half-baked) - but in a place that can keep a running record that most importantly anyone can read. I'm a big believer in the school of thought behind The Manhattan Project - many minds all together with every idea being community property. That's the whole point of the Forum - right? :P
More personally I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't have taken so long to work out the experience formula if I had expounded about more than just my initial thought and then the conclusion - there were other approaches in there. Even without help directly it's possible that some passing comment or even the act of writing it up would have steered me differently. Another way to think about it is like writing the answer on the test sheet and then showing the work elsewhere. (admittedly a math/science skewed example)
To further my selfish agenda (though I hope it to benefit the populous at large) it will give me a place to record and share the machinations of my crazy brain with the hopes that I can then distill my super-length diatribe down to its essence and then I can just link over to this thread as a source of additional but not required supporting information.
That said, I acknowledge that this in its genesis was for me but I hope others can make similar use of it. If it doesn't pan out I plan to keep it, similar to what Grimoire LD has: I'll probably rename to LordGarmonde's Notebook (or similar) - really just an shared version of what I do in real life - I have notebooks all over with ideas, and concepts, derivations, etc.
Or...I'd be more than happy to swing the other way and open this up for teaching purposes as well. The first example that comes to mind is Chillyfeez's most excellent answer to my earlier question about ROM adjustments:
Because I don't expect that to be the last time I appeal to the collective wisdom I could see having that question/answer here and then in Pinkpuff's thread linking over to here. (it works as it is now - don't get me wrong)
That said let me close out by saying I still feel that this is your Forum - and as the new kid on the block I don't want to come in and try and reshape everything - it's just an idea. (and ideas about that idea) Also, in case it's not obvious, this is my first time (ever) posting on any public forum, or collaborating online with anyone - I'm used to being a one-man-band - and though this is a welcome change for me it also means that I'm a noob in more ways than one.
Thoughts? Questions? Comments? Feel free to dive right in and post a block of half-finished code.
Door's open!
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 13, 2014, 11:20:45 PM
You are a fairly rare mind to find online, though our group may be small we have assembled quite an amount of talent in it. I am a fairly decent coder (of routines... for FFIV) Chillyfeez appears to be a great modder and a great coder, PinkPuff is a wizard (Sorceress?) at programming as displayed by FF4kster's amazing growth, you are proficient at Math, which is an area that I am terrible in and can look at our codings in different eyes than might someone else. Your talents are being put to great use in reformatting this abominable Exp system formulated for FFIV.
You never caught me as someone new to forums. You are doing an above great job if such is the case. I am looking forward to seeing what else you add to the topic.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 13, 2014, 11:23:58 PM
Ok
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 14, 2014, 12:39:05 AM
Sorry. That was meant to be funny. I wanted it to be the first reply but Grimoire beat me to it.
As far as any perceived rules to this forum, I don't think there really are any. Organization is good so keeping posts on the appropriate thread and linking between threads when it is pertinent is all good. There's nothing inherently wrong with being long winded in posts. Sometimes trying to explain what you're doing - or even worse, what you're thinking about doing - requires a very long and seemingly convoluted block of text. For me, personally... I tend to zone out when reading, so it would help me if you tried to avoid burying the lead. So, "today I was thinking about blablablah," or whatever, so I know what I'm reading about right off the bat, but that's just me.
As far as being noobish... don't feel bad. You seem to have the enthusiasm necessary for doing great things. It's good, too, to have a big goal to work towards. For you, maybe it's fixing the level up system. When I started up in this forum, my lofty goal from the get go was to crack the summon system (http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1756.msg17431#msg17431). Grimoire was very helpful to me there. I got sidetracked from that goal along the way and ended up learning (http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1801.msg18134#msg18134) some other (http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1867.0) cool stuff (http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1892.0), and in the process learned quite a bit about SNES ASM... partly on purpose but mostly by chance. Eventually, as you may know, I did figure summons out (http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1890.0), but I'm long since past the point where I am satisfied to just sit back and call that an accomplishment unto itself.
Anyway, my point is, you may not yet have discovered all the ways you'll be able to contribute to this little community, but you seem to have the necessary makings of someone who certainly can do so.
Btw, Grimoire, you seem to have forgotten all of the super-important disassembly research you've done on your notes thread. Seriously, opening up the index at the beginning of that thread is like, one of the necessary first steps when I do anything now.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 14, 2014, 02:18:56 AM
You are a fairly rare mind to find online, though our group may be small we have assembled quite an amount of talent in it.
Thank you very much; believe me when I say that I feel similarly about all of you. Also, Chillyfeez is right - you had not mentioned your extraordinary efforts towards disassembly - I thought at one point about how much of the game you must have broken down - I'd go with quite up there to say the least. Also, bonus points for you continued modesty as well. :wink:
It's nice to have been so welcomed by people who not only share my love for FF4 but have the drive to keep diving into it and the talent to back it up. - Definitely some sorcery surrounding PinkPuff - certainly access to a magic beyond my comprehension.
Sorry. That was meant to be funny. I wanted it to be the first reply but Grimoire beat me to it.
- It's still funny; and after that quick turn-around for my question about FF4kster you can say anything you want. :happy:
- That also answered my followup question about how to keep from running into the next event if I edit an event to be longer - so another :cookie: to recognize your two-fer
- I appreciate your honesty about long posts - zoning out is perfectly natural (it's not like I'm different in some of my classes) - As for your suggestion, agreed. That is the one rule I was thinking about going into this - some kind of intro statement as a point of reference. I'm glad even still that you are understanding of the long-road strategy. One problem I have is it disrupts the flow of a good back and forth.
- I hope in time to contribute even a fraction of what each one of you has brought to the table. I plan to post my incomplete "strip party members" code - I need to read through my notes again, but it's coming.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 15, 2014, 01:47:39 PM
Here's an expanded version of the TNL table Square provided (from 7B528-7C3C8) Any values for levels below the character's original starting level were constructed via proportional averaging.
A .csv version is also attached for import into Excel (or the like) and an XML version is eventually to be constructed as well. I made this table first with http://tableizer.journalistopia.com/tableizer.php and then edited the resulting code:
Level
Cecil
Kain
Rydia
Tellah
Edward
Rosa
Yang
Porom
Palom
Cecil
Cid
Edge
FuSoYa
1
36
31
44
50
33
32
31
28
28
23
32
31
37
2
65
56
76
89
59
57
56
51
51
42
57
55
67
3
104
89
118
142
94
91
90
82
82
70
91
88
107
4
157
135
175
215
142
137
136
124
124
109
138
133
161
5
234
202
249
322
225
205
203
185
185
163
206
199
241
6
326
282
345
448
308
286
283
258
258
233
287
277
335
7
443
382
467
607
410
388
383
350
350
324
390
376
455
8
587
506
617
805
537
514
508
463
463
438
517
498
603
9
763
658
800
1046
690
668
661
602
602
578
672
647
784
10
931
803
1018
1276
872
815
806
735
735
746
819
789
956
11
1186
1009
1276
1613
1086
1035
1029
932
932
945
1036
998
1209
12
1486
1249
1578
2007
1336
1294
1290
1162
1162
1180
1289
1241
1504
13
1834
1527
1926
2464
1624
1594
1593
1429
1429
1451
1583
1524
1847
14
2233
1845
2325
2987
1953
1938
1942
1736
1736
1763
1918
1848
2238
15
2688
2206
2777
3582
2327
2330
2339
2085
2085
2117
2301
2216
2685
16
3203
2613
3287
4255
2747
2773
2789
2479
2479
2518
2733
2633
3189
17
3780
3069
3859
5009
3217
3270
3293
2921
2921
2967
3218
3099
3754
18
4424
3577
4495
5848
3740
3825
3855
3413
3413
3468
3756
3618
4382
19
5139
4140
5200
6779
4320
4440
4480
3960
3960
4024
4355
4194
5080
20
5927
4760
5976
8320
4957
5118
5168
4562
4562
4636
5345
5147
6235
21
6794
5441
6828
9266
5657
5863
5925
5224
5224
5309
6120
5868
7107
22
7741
6185
7760
10289
6421
6678
6754
5948
5948
6045
6967
6653
8059
23
8774
6995
8774
11391
7253
7566
7656
6737
6737
6847
7891
7509
9096
24
9896
7875
9875
12578
8156
8531
8637
7593
7593
7718
8893
8437
10220
25
11111
8826
11065
13851
9132
9575
9699
8520
8520
8661
9978
9384
11366
26
12422
9852
12349
15215
10184
10701
10844
9521
9521
9678
11149
10404
12661
27
13833
10956
13731
16647
11316
11914
12078
10597
10597
10773
12409
11497
14052
28
15347
12141
15213
18230
12530
13216
13402
11752
11752
11947
13761
12668
15549
29
16969
13410
16800
19887
13830
14610
14820
12990
12990
13206
15210
13920
17148
30
18702
14764
18494
21648
15217
16099
16335
14331
14311
14550
16757
15253
18856
31
20550
16208
20300
23518
16696
17687
17950
15720
15720
15983
18406
16673
20671
32
22517
17744
22222
25499
18269
19376
19669
17220
17220
17507
20161
18181
22604
33
24606
19375
24262
27595
19938
21171
21496
18812
18812
19127
22025
19779
24656
34
26821
21105
26425
29810
21708
23073
23432
20501
20501
20844
24001
21472
26830
35
29165
22934
28713
32147
23581
25087
25482
22288
22288
22661
26092
23261
29130
36
31643
24868
31131
34609
25559
27216
27648
24176
24176
24582
28303
25150
31560
37
34257
26908
33683
37200
27647
29462
29934
26169
26169
26608
30635
27141
34124
38
37013
29058
36371
39924
29846
31829
32344
28269
28269
28744
33093
29236
36823
39
39913
31320
39200
42784
32160
34320
34880
30480
30480
30992
35680
31440
39665
40
42916
33697
42172
45783
34591
36938
37545
32802
32802
33354
38398
33753
42643
41
46161
36192
45292
48925
37143
39686
40343
35241
35241
35834
41252
36180
45781
42
49517
38808
48564
52213
39818
42568
43277
37798
37798
38434
44244
38723
49064
43
53032
41548
51990
55651
42620
45587
46351
40476
40476
41157
47379
41384
52501
44
56710
44415
55575
59243
45551
48746
49567
43278
43278
44007
50658
44167
56099
45
60555
47411
59321
62992
48614
52048
52929
46207
46207
46986
54086
47074
59856
46
64570
50540
63233
66901
51813
55496
56440
49266
49266
50097
57666
50108
63780
47
68759
53804
67315
70973
55150
59093
60103
52458
52458
53342
61401
53272
67874
48
73126
57206
71569
75214
58628
62843
63922
55785
55785
56726
65294
56568
72140
49
77675
60750
76000
79625
62250
66750
67900
59250
59250
60250
69350
60000
76583
50
82408
64437
80610
84210
66018
70815
72039
62855
62855
63917
73570
63569
82243
51
87331
68271
85404
88973
69937
75042
76344
66605
66605
67730
77958
67279
87176
52
92446
72255
90386
93917
74009
79434
80817
70502
70502
71693
82518
71133
92303
53
97758
76392
95558
99046
78237
83995
85462
74548
74548
75807
87253
75133
97627
54
103269
80685
100925
104363
82623
88728
90282
78746
78746
80077
92166
79282
103152
55
108985
85135
106489
109872
87171
93636
95280
83099
83099
84504
97260
83583
108881
56
114908
89747
112255
115577
91884
98722
100460
87610
83099
89092
102540
88038
114819
57
121042
94523
118227
121480
96764
103989
105824
92282
92282
93843
108007
92651
120969
58
127390
99466
124407
127585
101815
109440
111376
97118
97118
98761
113666
97424
127334
59
133958
104580
130800
133896
107040
115080
117120
102120
102120
103848
119520
102360
133920
60
140748
109865
137408
140415
112440
120909
123057
107291
107291
109106
125571
107461
140728
61
147763
115327
144236
147148
118020
126933
129193
112634
112634
114540
131824
112730
147763
62
155009
120967
151288
154097
123783
133154
135529
118152
118152
120152
138281
118171
155029
63
162487
126789
158566
161265
129730
139576
142069
123847
123847
125944
144947
123786
162529
64
170203
132795
166075
168657
135866
146201
148817
129723
129723
131920
151823
129577
170267
65
178160
138988
173817
176275
142193
153032
155775
135783
135783
138083
158914
135548
178247
66
186361
145371
181797
184123
148713
160074
162948
142028
142028
144434
166223
141700
186473
67
194810
151947
190019
192204
155431
167328
170337
148463
148463
150978
173753
148038
194947
68
203511
158719
198485
200523
162349
174799
177947
155089
155089
157717
181507
154564
203675
69
212468
165690
207200
209083
169470
182490
185780
161910
161910
161910
164654
189490
161280
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 15, 2014, 02:36:15 PM
That is really cool. It's interesting to know what Exp. amounts were supposed to get you from Level 1 to 10, in many cases.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 15, 2014, 02:51:35 PM
I was happy when I looked back at that table - everything looks right - straight down to Tellah's distributed gluttony :wink:
For extra fun - look at the data for Palom & Porom - you will find the result to which I allude to be quite self-evident but yet the 'why' is just simply beyond my comprehension - I got nothin' :eek:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 15, 2014, 04:46:41 PM
Are you talking about the fact that their TNL is identical except for two levels? Definitely bizarre. I can't help thinking that they could have made them identcal and found some way to have both characters use the same TNL data, thereby saving an astronomical amount of space.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 15, 2014, 05:21:42 PM
That was exactly what I was about to say, hehe. It looks like a coding glitch (someone forgot to program Yang's HP growth from 60 and above! So they definitely weren't 100% on the ball here.
I think Tellah has the longest level-ups because he's supposed to be old, I love that about FFIV is that "aging" is shown through Tellah's diminishing Strength and Vitality and in the end he doesn't get that much smarter. It shows a man well past his prime and that continued exertion could do more harm than good. I did love that they took that approach because it adds a bit more unique character to the characters.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 15, 2014, 06:57:14 PM
That was exactly what I was about to say, hehe. It looks like a coding glitch (someone forgot to program Yang's HP growth from 60 and above! So they definitely weren't 100% on the ball here.
I think Tellah has the longest level-ups because he's supposed to be old, I love that about FFIV is that "aging" is shown through Tellah's diminishing Strength and Vitality and in the end he doesn't get that much smarter. It shows a man well past his prime and that continued exertion could do more harm than good. I did love that they took that approach because it adds a bit more unique character to the characters.
I forgot about the Yang problem - but, "there's an app for that" - that patch is safe amongst the others :laugh:
Agreed about Tellah - I know some translations (probably J2E - maybe some other fan-hacks) hint at Tellah and the Mysidian Elder having a long history together - consider my sharing an idea to throw him in somehow Idea # 692 in the What-Else-Can-We-Do? file :finger:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 15, 2014, 07:04:29 PM
Meaning you want Elder to be a playable character? You could ditch FuSoYa...
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 15, 2014, 07:31:27 PM
The Elder is also playable for a whole one battle in The After Years and in the PSP release he even got a portrait! I always thought he was an interesting character and as I do love Tellah, I would very much enjoy seeing his buddy along with him there's an interesting story about Tellah from the FFIV Character Guide... here (http://rb.thundaga.com/ff4comp.htm) about a young Tellah. "When he was young, he was a famed wise man living in Mysidia, unraveling one ancient magical seal after another with his abilities. One day, however, he unleashed a magic beyond the limits his abilities to control, the effects of which ended up wounding many mages."
I really have to wonder if this spell he unleashed Was Meteo, hence why he knew of it and was searching for it at Mt. Ordeals.
It's surprising that no version of FFIV has actually discussed this part about Tellah, considering it can lend itself to some interesting story telling. Granted I'm pretty sure some of his story has been ret-conned by future releases. In The After Years he's referred to as a Sage who traveled the world, helping people and this is how he became known as a Sage which is what Palom's initial goal is in TAY. I guess it might be reasoned that he started his own journey of atonement after releasing destruction upon Mysidia.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Pinkpuff on January 15, 2014, 08:03:45 PM
Actually if you ask me, a prequel would be an interesting idea for a hack. A sort of "FF4 The Before Years" or something. Young Tellah, young Odin, maybe Palom & Porom's parents (a Time Mage and an Oracle might be interesting for them!), some original characters of course, explore some jobs from other FFs that we didn't get in any other version of FF4 like Geomancer, Mystic Knight, etc. maybe use some of those cool custom commands going on in the other thread...
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 15, 2014, 08:05:46 PM
I'll buy that - that's the kind of back-story that even if ret-conned still feels right. "Unraveling one ancient magical after another with his abilities..." definitely building towards Meteo - Coincidentally a name which if given the space I still wouldn't change: to see a man put all of himself in to trying to kill someone and in trying shouts "METEOR" really just doesn't carry the same force behind it as "METEO" - That may be me though.
The other translation that FF2 will forever contribute to any and every project of mine: "For all those living on Earth...I will destroy you!" I thought that line awesome as a kid and I think it awesome now!
Thanks for the link too - I almost forgot about; it's been years since I first came across it (it's on this comp somewhere...) - And to think, I was passing by it daily as I kept returning to Thundaga for Level-Up data - lol
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 15, 2014, 08:11:09 PM
Actually if you ask me, a prequel would be an interesting idea for a hack. A sort of "FF4 The Before Years" or something. Young Tellah, young Odin, maybe Palom & Porom's parents (a Time Mage and an Oracle might be interesting for them!), some original characters of course, explore some jobs from other FFs that we didn't get in any other version of FF4 like Geomancer, Mystic Knight, etc. maybe use some of those cool custom commands going on in the other thread...
That's not bad - not too bad at all; I like it!
On a personal note it would free me of the guilt I can't shake when even thinking of messing with the story in the game - I feel like I'm betraying it - what is that? Honestly now? :omg: - But back story with new characters: "Golden Ticket" time! As long as there's no George Lucasing - no guilt!
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Pinkpuff on January 15, 2014, 08:14:46 PM
I'll buy that - that's the kind of back-story that even if ret-conned still feels right. "Unraveling one ancient magical after another with his abilities..." definitely building towards Meteo - Coincidentally a name which if given the space I still wouldn't change: to see a man put all of himself in to trying to kill someone and in trying shouts "METEOR" really just doesn't carry the same force behind it as "METEO" - That may be me though.
Meteo does have a certain uniqueness to it, doesn't it.
On a personal note it would free me of the guilt I can't shake when even thinking of messing with the story in the game - I feel like I'm betraying it - what is that? Honestly now? :omg: - But back story with new characters: "Golden Ticket" time! As long as there's no George Lucasing - no guilt!
Thanks!
Tellah was always pretty energetic but just imagine what he'd be like with the vigor of youth! Maybe he'd actually be more red-mage-like, with the feather hat and able to equip some swords and such... and I know what a headache this would probably be to implement, but can you imagine Double Cast??
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 15, 2014, 08:19:22 PM
That would be a really neat idea Pinkpuff! Considering that Odin alone seems to have had a few adventures here and there and knew KluYa and Cecilia at some point.
I guess a few more characters would be the Elder, Maybe also include Kain's dad who is mentioned as the head of the Dragoon Corps (and FFIV DS calls him Ricard in reference to FFII where Ricard has a son named Kain), maybe the old King of Fabul could work. The only issue would be what the plot would be, granted the supplemental guide makes it seem as if FFIV's world is ever on the brink of a new disaster and Baron's military isn't just there for show. Monster raids, possibly?
I personally feel like FFIV, while a great story, has a lot of room to grow. Unless you do something really bizarre (like having Tellah join up with Golbez to get revenge for Anna... Oh wait... (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n198/LastingDawn/TellahandGolbezfightingZemus_zps8fc90c8c.png) FFIV has a world that can be greatly expanded upon and this just happens to be the newest post that I'm writing about on what they possibly had as beta plans for FFIV through the old supplemental guide.
Yes. The best spell name ever made to me is Meteo.
Double Cast may not be as difficult to incorporate as one may think actually... it might not even take up That much space now that I think on it.
I theorize that Tellah may have been a Red Mage when he was younger, he definitely has the Red of a classic Red Mage on his person. (hence why he can use Swords and the Break Skills in my Break SKills patch)
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 15, 2014, 09:17:39 PM
It's so far off that I'll just sketch it out - that's what I made the Drawing Board for!
I don't like hypnosis and I don't like events I can to easily see through as ways to cut you off - I know that the universal standard - I don't mean to criticze it - I just know this game too well and when you leave Babil you close the underground so then (only then, never before...?) you get the hook so you can meet Edge and go back down where your choices limit again until you re-do what Cid un-did, after you did it the first time...
Maybe that's just me - I kinda feel a jerk having written it out like that...
I didn't mean it; I'm sorry!! I still love you FF4! :childish:
Anyone else feel that way? (Not the love-profession/breakdown :P )
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 15, 2014, 09:22:17 PM
Oh yeah - duh - kinda didn't follow up on the hypnosis comment :blush:
I sketched out the following: Kain is pretty much Lando in Empire Strikes Back - he's a good guy - but ended up in a bad place - made a bad deal, and just couldn't get out of it for a while: I plan to approach that as Golbez having come to Baron offering to Kain - Get rid of Cecil - get me the Crystals - you get Baron, and get Rosa - he just wants her too bad and Golbez gives him nothing in return, but Kain's still stuck in that tower - can't resist on his own - or something like that
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 15, 2014, 09:30:39 PM
With the whole Kain motivation shift the should still play the same - even his later shame and guilt is perfectly built up - in fact moreso since he always had control
Golbez is the big dream - always has been - Fedorajoe made a good Golbez hack - it did a lot towards getting me to think about changing when characters come and go - but with extra characters often times and two fully-loaded black mages for the end - too easy and to me, not enough Golbez time
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 15, 2014, 09:59:41 PM
I've toyed with the idea of creating "Story patches" that follow one specific character like FFIV follows solely Cecil.
Sort of like this...
Rydia Meet the people of Mist, do a couple of small errands for her Mom, (maybe add a cave for her to go through) watch her Mom command the Mist Dragon and die when the Dragon is defeated. Rydia vs. Cecil and Kain, events happen as normal, no walk to Kaipo, except she does recover there and you proceed to save Rosa by getting to Damcyan, a little more bonding with Tellah along the way, Damcyan-Antlion's Cave-Mt Hobbs is normal. Rydia should get a few fights alongside Rosa in protecting Fabul.
Her story makes a major divergence after being swallowed by Leviathan and brought to the Feymarch. Here she bonds with the various Eidolons and learns to summon Shiva, Ifrit, Ramuh, Titan, and the Mist Dragon through six mini dungeons (along with a story of helping to stop an invasion of the Feymarch by other monsters). Then by now she has aged considerably and is told by Leviathan to assist Cecil who will soon be in danger, and once she makes it out of the Path to the Feymarch (maybe make it so that an evil force is obstructing Leviathan's powers and that evil force is making camp at the base of the Path of the Feymarch) is transported to the front of the Dwarven Castle and quickly gains access, saves the party and... the rest of the game is pretty much normal from there, as would be the case with all five normal characters.
Granted I think Rosa could have an interesting adventure and here's a couple of reasons...
That waterfall basin near Baron always fascinated me and that the basin starts from high in the mountains always made me think that Rosa may have taken a secret path through the waterfall to reach a descending point in the basin and made her way to Damcyan from there. Though her story wouldn't really be much different from that point on.
Kain's however could be Quite different. As you mentioned he is basically lost after Mist. He might even be able to participate in the attack on Damcyan to retrieve the Fire Crystal, then maybe deal with some rebellion in Baron against the King and then off to Fabul to fight Cecil. After that is... tricky. I rather liked that the Dark Elf proved to be an obstacle even to Golbez, I could imagine Kain going into the Magnes Cave and failing to defeat the Dark Elf, I can't think of anything else much creative for him at the moment.
Though I really like the idea of separate character stories.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 15, 2014, 10:16:04 PM
Ah - that reminds me of something I set up for when I first got here:
The one I wrote for Mist (my first Assembly routine ever!) is as follows:
0000:FAD9 22 04 80 1D jsl 1D8004 (Originally jsl 15C6FA - replaced with my call)
-- My Code --
001D:8004 22 FA C6 15 jsl 15C6FA (First execute the original modification routine) 001D:8008 AD 81 12 lda 1281 (Check For Mist Flag) 001D:800B 29 40 and #40 ($1281 = 40 => Set) 001D:800D F0 0E beq 801D (If Yes - Execute my code, Else Return) 001D:800F A9 01 lda #01 (Load New Tile Value #01 Chosen for Testing) 001D:8011 8F D4 92 7F sta 7F92D4 (Overwrite address with new value) 001D:8015 8F D4 93 7F sta 7F93D4 (Overwrite address with new value) 001D:8019 8F D4 94 7F sta 7F94D4 (Overwrite address with new value) 001D:801D 6B rtl (Return Long)
So as you can see it replaces the original subroutine call with one way out in the middle of nowhere - then runs the code as originally written after which my changes are tacked on.
What I did was I connected that basin to the ocean straight up - put a basin at the top, and one above the path from Mist - and then when the quake happens - the basins connect with mountain on either side, but it cleared a path so you could chocobo from Baron to Toria - or I was laying it out, Toria to Baron - I was going (1st draft here) to have the Devil's Road to Baron get interrupted mid teleport - in fact I have a ROM with the events reconfigured (somewhere) but in a nut shell...
Normal game through Paladin Promotion Take the road - just before Baron screen darkens (magnetic sound) - Appear in Dark Elf's Cave - in the Crystal Room - he attacks, you "die" wake up in the hospital and rejoin with Edward - then take care of the Dark Elf, and then Chocobo down to Baron to get Cid/Airship
- or something - but I set the map up so totally hear you - I don't like the way Rosa got ahead with no explaination
- Also, I'm with you on individual stories - lots of fun to be had there!
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 15, 2014, 10:32:40 PM
That is actually really cool what you have set up there!
I would love to see a picture of that, world map modifications always excite me.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 15, 2014, 10:47:01 PM
Not 100% done - but you get the idea. The mountain pass I made needs smoothing for example - But there would be a single width river connecting the basins after the quake :wink:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 15, 2014, 11:12:52 PM
Haha, true story - in my hack, there are some "hire-able" (relatively nameless) characters. One is a dragoon. Most of them take their names (since they have to have names) from the members of Tantalus from ffix, but the Dragoon's name is Lando. I shit you not.
Anyway, I love the Idea of a Before-Years. I've tossed the idea around as a follow-up if and when I finish my current project... a little peppering of a backstory for KluYa is kind of a key element in my plot towards the end... kinda hard to explain without explaining the whole story...
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 16, 2014, 12:54:27 AM
That is some good world modeling there LordGarmonde! I suppose it will only be a matter of time until FF4kster will be able to edit the world map, does that little path to Troia signify anything out of curiosity? Or, as you said when you get a Black Chocobo you can fly right over to Mist (which is a great idea by the way).
Ah? You managed to fit Generic Characters into your TAAY Chillyfeez? That is interesting!
Also, more info. about KluYa is always a good thing. FFIV:DS added a bit on him as well.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 16, 2014, 03:44:43 AM
Haha, true story - in my hack, there are some "hire-able" (relatively nameless) characters. One is a dragoon. Most of them take their names (since they have to have names) from the members of Tantalus from ffix, but the Dragoon's name is Lando. I shit you not.
That is some good world modeling there LordGarmonde! I suppose it will only be a matter of time until FF4kster will be able to edit the world map, does that little path to Troia signify anything out of curiosity? Or, as you said when you get a Black Chocobo you can fly right over to Mist (which is a great idea by the way).
Back when I was setting that up I was thinking that no Chocobo's in the area until after the Dark Elf is gone - need a land bridge, but no big deal
Then go through the Dark Elf scenario and then ride a yellow Chocobo over the water down to Baron and go through the story there - I wanted to leave Tellah behind in Toria so that there won't be an Thundaga incidents with a certain water fiend - but it was all in planning stages, haven't really been back
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 16, 2014, 03:59:17 AM
"Long, long ago... a great light appeared in the sky. It bathed the earth below in its warm luminance and then disappeared for parts unknown. Afterwards, four small lights remained and a new planet was born in the heavens. An evil will yet reached out for Earth, but it remained sealed away by a strong power."
Quite a bit different than anything we see in-game! What is interesting is that this coincides with FFIV:TAY's overall plot very well... now if they would have Included this Anywhere in either game maybe the Final Boss wouldn't have seemingly come out of nowhere. Also I have to wonder at this point if Zemus was even thought up. Mainly because "An evil will yet reached out for Earth" I don't think the Lunarians looking for a new home is an "Evil will" that reached out for Earth.
- That never struck me right either - and though giving it away, my hack is definitely a ways off and it's fun to talk it through in the meantime :)
- That was going to be my way to bring in Golbez - not hypnotized either -directly posessed - and when you defeat him @ Giott's Castle Golbez collapses but in stead of the hand - it'd be Zemus - I made that event too - gotta find it (bad organization when I first started)
- You see a quick glimpse of him and then you dump Golbez in the Hospital (bottom left bunk) and go to Babil
- After that I was working ways to add him to the party, I had a few ideas but it wasn't 100% reasoned out
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 16, 2014, 08:32:05 AM
Ah? You managed to fit Generic Characters into your TAAY Chillyfeez? That is interesting!
Also, more info. about KluYa is always a good thing. FFIV:DS added a bit on him as well.
Five generic characters, one secret character who can take the generic spot, four main party characters who - by the end - you can switch at whim, one main party character who gets a "big choice" that affects what his job is for the second half of the game, and one completely static character (not to mention one temporary character who is not part of the final party). Altogether, there are 30 possibilities for your final party - all without a shadow party hack. Though figuring out a way to import shadow party equipment is on my agenda eventually - it must be possible, just haven't really explored it yet.
I have the DS version. I forgot there was some KluYa in it... I'll have to play through again to make sure I avoid continuity issues.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 16, 2014, 09:16:59 AM
...How did you manage this? I've seen that you can't use an Actor Slot twice, or are these permanent choices as in you add This person to the party you cannot get That person and so on and so forth?
Also yes, KluYa has a big portion to play in an added scene near the end of FFIV:DS.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 16, 2014, 09:31:05 AM
The "big choice" is the only permanent party option. You can only have one generic or secret character in the party at a time (which is explained in the first few minutes). A Job Card is used to hire them, and one won't join unless the other leaves. Generic characters cannot rejoin, so dismiss Lando, and if you rehire Lando he starts back at Lv 10 again. The secret character does use a shadow slot, though - it's the same slot that handles the data transfer for the "big choice," for efficiency (you can't get the secret character until after the choice is made). Of the four interchangeables, two are Palom and Porom (all grown up), they are "inseperable," so you choose both or neither. For the sake of ease, I think it will be "these two or those two" at any given time. So, choice of six generic/secret, multiplied by choice of two or two, multiplied by the big choice option: 6 * 2 * 2 = 24 I actually multiplied wrong before. :edit: heh... apparently i can't do maff this morning. 24 is right. Not 30 or 32.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 16, 2014, 11:11:37 AM
I am glad that you went with that angle, since I really did like how Palom and Porom's relationship had all but deteriorated in TAY (more on Palom's side than Porom) that the two don't even have Twincast when they're grown up, yet they were shown to reconnect in the final chapter in a subtle manner.
I have to say that Palom was my favorite character in TAY, since it shows what became of the prodigy. Though gifted he seems to have become frustrated with his inability to grasp White Magic and stopped working to improve his Black Magic and though he plays at wanting to become a Sage, by the time he's fully grown he realizes in his heart that he simply cannot be and I think this drives a bit of his bitterness early in the story. Which is also why I love the character of Leonora, without even trying she can learn Black and White Magic, though she excels at White Magic she can learn Black Magic and Palom at the end to TAY basically leaves with her to assist her in becoming a Sage, I think Leonora and Palom's relationship is probably my favorite in The After Years.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Pinkpuff on January 16, 2014, 12:10:04 PM
At first I always thought the King was training Dark Knights because he had been replaced by Cagnazzo but I think Cecil would have realized that something was up long ago if that were the case. From the in-game dialogue I get the impression that Cecil became a dark knight due, at least in part, to pressure from the king to do so. If so there's no way he wouldn't have seen through that disguise from the time he started training to the time he became fleet captain. So maybe for some reason Odin believes in "the dark sword" as a philosophy. He certainly looks like a dark knight, and has a dark-knight-ish ability.
I think it would be a cool poetic reversal if in the prequel, Odin started as a paladin and then for whatever reasons/pressures/events that happened, he became a dark knight!
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 16, 2014, 12:28:50 PM
Oooh, I'm getting giddy about the conversation here as it relates to my story. Leonora's epilogue is one of the big surprises... you dpn't end up in Troia until relatively late inthe game and, well, let's just say things are not at all as one would expect there.
Regarding light vs. Dark, I went a little "midichlorian" in that respect. See, what was always known as Light and Dark is discovered (by P&P) to actually be Earthly and Lunar. It works with Cecil's previous journey - he could not overcome his foe with the dark (lunar) sword because his foe was lunar. Likewise, he could master either side because he was the offspring of a lunarian and an earthling. Palom could never learn White magic BECAUSE he's a twin. One twin got all the lunar power, the other got all of the earthly power. The plot of my story revolves heavily around the idea that light and dark do not necessarily mean good and evil - evil (and good) can be born from lunar or earthly sources.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 16, 2014, 01:20:01 PM
I actually multiplied wrong before. :edit: heh... apparently i can't do maff this morning. 24 is right. Not 30 or 32.
It's OK there's only 3 kinds of people in the world; the ones who can do math and the ones who can't - Hey it keeps popping up in my head so now you're all infected! :laugh: But anyway, that's a pretty kickass concept chillyfeez. I always had in the back of my mind (as others here for sure) the FF4A final party freedom approach. Even in mine I was anticipating Golbez & Rydia to swap - really hit on her being the last Summoner and relating that story-wise to her being the answer to help stop Zemus
From a design standpoint she's just too powerful for my liking - I want her in and out, and when she's last with you it's kind of like FuSoYa - no limit in skills, but also not a permanent addition; kinda like renting a Ferrari (or Tesla!) can't keep it but it's fun to drive for a day! But when you get that Job Card/swap-out code nailed I'm sure I'll 'borrow' it (which will include a note in the ReadMe of '...from chillyfeez <---he's gooood!!')
I am glad that you went with that angle, since I really did like how Palom and Porom's relationship had all but deteriorated in TAY (more on Palom's side than Porom) that the two don't even have Twincast when they're grown up, yet they were shown to reconnect in the final chapter in a subtle manner.
I have to say that Palom was my favorite character in TAY, since it shows what became of the prodigy.
100% with you on that one - very well done as a story arc. Personally I can relate - I never mastered White Magic either. :finger:
So maybe for some reason Odin believes in "the dark sword" as a philosophy. He certainly looks like a dark knight, and has a dark-knight-ish ability.
I think it would be a cool poetic reversal if in the prequel, Odin started as a paladin and then for whatever reasons/pressures/events that happened, he became a dark knight!
I think you're on to something there; I never thought about Odin in-and-of himself; but you're right. Even in Norse Mythology he's not a 1-to-1 with Zeus the supposed King of Perfect Virtue - At the very least Odin would acknowledge "wrong"-doings whereas someone like Zeus would also play it off as 'best for everyone'
That aside, I had heard somewhere that, with few exceptions, "everyone is the hero of their own story" - I can't cite it, there seems to be some confusion at large about the source - anyway I always keep that in mind when "writing" - I really should document more than I do - but again another of my selfish reasons for this Board! - but of course not 100% selfish - anyone is welcome to 'take:' though trying to cite will be nice but one can only do their best (at best anyway)
- More in a moment!
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 16, 2014, 01:46:26 PM
The job card system actually doesn't require any custom coding. It's all event-based. Different hireable characters come from different lands - ninja from eblan, dragoon from baron, bard from damcyan, white or black mage from mysidia (no hiring karate masters, but Ursula becomes a permanent character). In the "training" area of each location, there is a Namingway (Jobbingway… Hiringway?) Who asks if you want to hire one, then the menu opens up looking for a Job Card. If you choose Job Card, the proper generic character is added, and the event removes all other generic characters. Of course the Job Card is lost after use. The cards will cost around 5000 gp, making them harder to get early, but no problem beginning around mid-game.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 16, 2014, 01:58:09 PM
The job card system actually doesn't require any custom coding. It's all event-based. Different hireable characters come from different lands - ninja from eblan, dragoon from baron, bard from damcyan, white or black mage from mysidia (no hiring karate masters, but Ursula becomes a permanent character). In the "training" area of each location, there is a Namingway (Jobbingway… Hiringway?) Who asks if you want to hire one, then the menu opens up looking for a Job Card. If you choose Job Card, the proper generic character is added, and the event removes all other generic characters. Of course the Job Card is lost after use. The cards will cost around 5000 gp, making them harder to get early, but no problem beginning around mid-game.
Nice dude - beautifully simple; I love it!
That's what first popped into mind about swapping out Skills in towns (Trainingway!)
But I was going to write that up with my sketch for stripping the gear from the newly departed (not the dead type specifically - all departed) - I was thinking about carving out a new storage area for that stuff separate from even the Fat Chocobo - Storingway! - but I think I settled on FC in the end anyway instead of rolling the dice with new areas of the sRAM
----- Note to Self: find and post the damn storage code!!
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 16, 2014, 02:39:28 PM
:offtopic: - Anyone else use Chrome (on Win 7) - The Forum just crashed a few times (prob. my bad)
-----------
Back to the Odin/Dark Knight thinking...
I may be misrecalling/misinterpreting but didn't FF6 go into that a bit - Odin to Raiden? I could see going into the reverse set up a little more - started off a Paladin and then fell - I like it Pinkpuff!
As for reasoning: there's always the love angle - but that is now a cliche. Though you look at something like the Lancelot/Guinevere legend (not present in some of the earliest works I believe) - but anyway, that's a decent foundation with various hit-and-miss portrayals/retellings - In contrast to say Episode III* which is a bad way to tie those together.
Vader, though, is still very much an interest of mine - given the quote above how "wrong" does he actually think he is in day-to-day. He's the archetype for Lawful Evil: as wrong as the Empire is it's not wrong specifically for Vader to enforce the law:
- "The Empire may be corrupt but not all of its citizens are..." - always liked that one
I was sketching out ways to explore that in my setup with Golbez...really having the questions come up about culpability. I don't think Edge was wrong when he forcefully challenges Kain's loyalty - I think everyone else is a little too accepting (but they do know him more) - Edge was kind of a jerk about it anyway - but same problem there - Kain feels personal guilt as shown in the end, as does Golbez when he departs with FuSoYa:
- But you don't get to carry that weight around, you just find out after the fact :hmm:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 16, 2014, 03:05:49 PM
Regarding light vs. Dark, I went a little "midichlorian" in that respect. See, what was always known as Light and Dark is discovered (by P&P) to actually be Earthly and Lunar. It works with Cecil's previous journey - he could not overcome his foe with the dark (lunar) sword because his foe was lunar. Likewise, he could master either side because he was the offspring of a lunarian and an earthling. Palom could never learn White magic BECAUSE he's a twin. One twin got all the lunar power, the other got all of the earthly power. The plot of my story revolves heavily around the idea that light and dark do not necessarily mean good and evil - evil (and good) can be born from lunar or earthly sources.
For myself I'm OK with that - it works when done right and sounds like a good setup to me! (* See above post Re: Episode III)
(Light/Dark) =/= (Good/Evil) <-- yes sir + I like the explanation for Cecil: nailed it
Of course now I have to ask: :wink:
How is Palom going to handle that? Of course I won't ask you to give away anything you don't want to - but it's an internally debated issue for me.
Han Solo (as I understand it) is a good example. I haven't read anything in the Expanded Universe for Star Wars: but I've read a lot about it and I believe that when Han & Leia had children that some of them were stronger with The Force than expected and it was developed that Han is in fact not walking around with an MC of zero - quick reflexes, in both situation analysis and physical dexterity - great pilot, same thinking, etc. - But Han hated that explaination; he felt it took from him the his accomplishment in developing skill 'Born to be better, etc.' - I so envision there Porom being very happy with this discovery and the associated advances in the understanding of magic...
...but at the same time Palom not taking it well. One response is just straight up anger - physically incapible of having become a Sage - that and/or depression. It's an extremely interesting arc to develop I can't wait to play through it someday! :childish:
----------------------------
- Slightly off-topic: a couple good Star Wars links I found before Episode III came out:
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/injuries.html
- Website originally started in '95 about what exactly happened to Anakin and what limitations Vader has - building towards basically reconstructing what younger Anakin would have had to have been - I'm a fan!
Star Wars: Episode III: Twilight of the Gods by Syndny Cuthbert
(Sci Fi) - It takes place an undefined number of years after the events in 'Attack of the Clones' (Episode II), and tells the story of how Anakin Skywalker finishes his journey to the Dark Side and becomes Lord Darth Vader. (rtf - formatting: http://www.simplyscripts.com/scripts/TwilightoftheGods.rtf )
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 16, 2014, 04:26:39 PM
Odin being a Paladin that turned into a Dark Knight is a very interesting thought. Dissidia did a good job with Cecil explaining why he is able to control both Dark and Light because neither is inherently good or evil. There is a Lot of mention of battle and war in the various descriptions about Baron in the Scenario Guide but no specific opponent. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that Odin, due to his code of being a Paladin and devoting himself entirely to honor and justice became blind to the corruption at the court (it is interesting to see that Baron has no advisor like Fabul, Eblan, and presumably Damcyan had, I guess Baigan might count, but I saw him mainly as the Guard Leader, maybe with some influence in matters but not a major voice) before he was cast out of his own kingdom because of his own naivete. Perhaps his personal journey around the world could be to come up with a way of reclaiming his kingdom and while on this journey discovers that this code of being a Paladin, while meaning well, paralyzes one's ability to discern truth, and thus decides to don the armor of the Dark Knight in order to wrest his kingdom back from those who had taken it.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 16, 2014, 05:06:12 PM
Odin being a Paladin that turned into a Dark Knight is a very interesting thought. Dissidia did a good job with Cecil explaining why he is able to control both Dark and Light because neither is inherently good or evil...
That's pretty cool. I never played Dissidia but I saw clips of it and read up a bit over the years: I liked that Cecil seemed to be able to go back and forth - it made me think that maybe he finally accepted it. The transition to becoming a Paladin feels a little too much like a do-over rather than coming to terms with it. I'd think it'd be cool if he had a third armor layout that was clearly a mixture of the two extremes - but he does have others right - hmm
Another question I've had is what about KluYa? He's obviously set up as similar to his brother - but why then would his Spirit translate into Cecil becoming a Paladin - it almost seems like a incompatible mix of the two cultures - I don't know
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 16, 2014, 05:22:32 PM
FFIV:DS gives a bit more of his backstory. KluYa apparently went to Earth long ago and in his travels he taught the people of Mysidia magic (likely teaching it to Minh as the background of FFIV said Minh was one of the first mages) and it is implied that he was the one that left the documentation for Cid to build the Airship. Eventually he settled down in what appears to be Or close to Mist.
Here he was killed by a faction of villagers who sought to use the magic that were taught to them by KluYa for war, when KluYa intended the magic he taught only to be used in helping and protecting, because of his past connections to Mysidia it is likely why his soul ended up on Mt. Ordeals.
If this was indeed Mist, then that presents an entirely different view of the Mist Burning, it may not have been so much Zemus but possibly Golbez's will himself, to get revenge on those who had killed his father.
If you wanted to present him as being fully-aware of his lineage and past of course.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 16, 2014, 06:04:39 PM
See - I didn't play the DS version and it bit me in the ass :lame:
Like most things, I did read up on it, but that was way more informative; so thank you!
If this was indeed Mist, then that presents an entirely different view of the Mist Burning, it may not have been so much Zemus but possibly Golbez's will himself, to get revenge on those who had killed his father.
If you wanted to present him as being fully-aware of his lineage and past of course.
Absolutely! That's actually perfect too because that really brings it back to the fundamental question of will. The only way to be both a good man and a good soldier is to, when ordered, do as commanded but if the act is wrong a good man will know it so and feel the guilt within: "You are a good man, Cecil" - I've watched the cutscenes before and I was going to think about how to keep inline with the Golbez/Zemus connection:
With Mist the idea that it's just that it was ordered - Golbez may have wanted it too but for much of the game will just be uncertain. In fact, I may leave that open for interpretation because I really don't want to end it with Golbez flashbacking through his life - but then that causes odds with something else I was setting up there... :whoa:
The other half of the draw for the Mist angle was setting up Rydia as "A New Hope" as it were. I had an idea about her Summoning abilities to be an offset for her that is large enough to build story around. Kinda like Voldemort vs Dumbledore - he's always been hesitant to actually confront Dumbledore "the only wizard he ever feared" and my plan for Giotts Castle are along the lines of "Behold at last the Master of ALL Magic!" - Then summoning the Shadow Dragon with the setup there of he made sure to wipe out Mist quick - Summoners are gone, and with Zemus being unrivaled - that would be that...until Rydia shows up blow that plan away! My explanation for missing it is she's a little girl - Golbez never saw her and then she matured in the Feymarch - just didn't see it - or something anyway!
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 16, 2014, 06:18:59 PM
I think I just figured out what my hang-up was that prompted:
Another question I've had is what about KluYa? He's obviously set up as similar to his brother - but why then would his Spirit translate into Cecil becoming a Paladin - it almost seems like a incompatible mix of the two cultures - I don't know
Here he was killed by a faction of villagers who sought to use the magic that were taught to them by KluYa for war, when KluYa intended the magic he taught only to be used in helping and protecting, because of his past connections to Mysidia it is likely why his soul ended up on Mt. Ordeals.
KluYa represents the same core principles that also define the Paladin - so of course that's what he can inspire in his son - the virtues of peace infused into a Knight - which in my head was kinda pushing contradiction territory - my seeing KluYa as basically a Pacifist - but he doesn't have to be that Knight himself, just inspire what that Knight is to represent.
Or to put it simply, the way it first entered my mind actually: it is not the Final Fantasy version of "I am a Jedi; like my Father before me." - Though Golbez and Vader definitely went to school together at some point :tongue:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 16, 2014, 06:24:41 PM
Now that I think about it, I guess it is notable that Golbez learned how to use Summon Magic if only to call the Shadow Dragon (though it couldn't have been a true summon or else Golbez would have died when the Shadow Dragon did). Well we know that Golbez did want to get rid of Rydia as well. He sent soldiers immediately to look for Cecil to get rid of Rydia.
Now that I think on it... did Leviathan swallow Rydia in order to protect her?
Golbez may have had more plots down the line to get rid of her had she not been put beyond his reach (Note to self: Possibly kill off Rydia somewhere in the plot in a Dark Knight Journey patch.) and once she is fully mature with many summons at her beck and call there's nothing more Golbez could do.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 16, 2014, 08:49:54 PM
Now that I think about it, I guess it is notable that Golbez learned how to use Summon Magic if only to call the Shadow Dragon (though it couldn't have been a true summon or else Golbez would have died when the Shadow Dragon did). Well we know that Golbez did want to get rid of Rydia as well. He sent soldiers immediately to look for Cecil to get rid of Rydia.
Now that I think on it... did Leviathan swallow Rydia in order to protect her?
Golbez may have had more plots down the line to get rid of her had she not been put beyond his reach (Note to self: Possibly kill off Rydia somewhere in the plot in a Dark Knight Journey patch.) and once she is fully mature with many summons at her beck and call there's nothing more Golbez could do.
I think so; I can't imagine he would not have known she was the last Summoner. I wonder though - How does the Eldolon connection work? (btw - still can't quite seem to accept that name - lol)
Rydia's mother summoned the Mist Dragon - and then went down with it. It feels like later remakes and TAY interpret it more as she is the dragon. Neither theory is without flaw, though. If she was the dragon - would that mean that every Eldolon has a counterpart - that's my question in either case actually.
Odin is certainly tied directly with King Baron - but that seems more explicitly defined as King of Baron dies, and then becomes Odin - but that would mean there was no Odin while he was alive as King - or at the very least until the King was born, right?
- I hadn't thought on this too deeply; I'm glad it came up!
With regard to Golbez - you're absolutely right - with that band of Summons behind her - no contest! You could argue that Golbez's summon is weak and that's why he's so easily defeated afterwards
- Aside: Have you ever looked at his script for that battle? He's got a check in there like "If HP < 19,000 then End Battle (Vanish, right?)" - Why? If he were to have just had less HP that would have been fine, right? I was also thinking for that battle maybe it could be set so that when Rydia comes in the dragon does 9999 to Golbez so it at least looks right when he dies a few turns later - but then again 9999 (or so) "killed him" before...hmm...
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Dragonsbrethren on January 16, 2014, 09:03:18 PM
If he didn't kill himself with Vanish his text at the end of that battle would never show. They made a smart call with Golbez: by using a value significantly higher than his max HP, you'll always see it. They didn't make this same call with Rubicante, and it's almost impossible to see his end text since you usually overshoot the value and just kill him normally.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 16, 2014, 09:10:57 PM
If he didn't kill himself with Vanish his text at the end of that battle would never show. They made a smart call with Golbez: by using a value significantly higher than his max HP, you'll always see it. They didn't make this same call with Rubicante, and it's almost impossible to see his end text since you usually overshoot the value and just kill him normally.
Note: Listen to this dude RufusDragonsbrethren he knows what he's talkin' about! :cycle:
Good call about the exit text - very good to keep in mind
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 16, 2014, 11:37:36 PM
I think so; I can't imagine he would not have known she was the last Summoner. I wonder though - How does the Eldolon connection work? (btw - still can't quite seem to accept that name - lol)
Rydia's mother summoned the Mist Dragon - and then went down with it. It feels like later remakes and TAY interpret it more as she is the dragon. Neither theory is without flaw, though. If she was the dragon - would that mean that every Eldolon has a counterpart - that's my question in either case actually.
Odin is certainly tied directly with King Baron - but that seems more explicitly defined as King of Baron dies, and then becomes Odin - but that would mean there was no Odin while he was alive as King - or at the very least until the King was born, right?
- I hadn't thought on this too deeply; I'm glad it came up!
With regard to Golbez - you're absolutely right - with that band of Summons behind her - no contest! You could argue that Golbez's summon is weak and that's why he's so easily defeated afterwards
- Aside: Have you ever looked at his script for that battle? He's got a check in there like "If HP < 19,000 then End Battle (Vanish, right?)" - Why? If he were to have just had less HP that would have been fine, right? I was also thinking for that battle maybe it could be set so that when Rydia comes in the dragon does 9999 to Golbez so it at least looks right when he dies a few turns later - but then again 9999 (or so) "killed him" before...hmm...
That... I have no idea. I think that in life the King of Baron may have been known as Odin. (as in Odin Baron) though this is slightly contradicted by a man in Mist who said that he had heard that the Soul of Odin is sleeping under Baron Castle. It may mean that Odin is the "ancestral spirit" so to speak of the Baronian Kings if its been a long rumor that Odin was known to sleep there. So it would stand to reason that the current Baronian King would speak through him.
What they did with Golbez was silly. Very silly. This is the pivotal battle, the big moment! Golbez is right back kicking after Tellah's Meteo and he's ready to fight! No punches pulled this time, surely!!! Fire2 did 3000 damage to him... He's dead. Hah. This wouldn't be so bad were it not the final battle with Golbez. He comes off as really weak in this battle which is a shame because FFIV is one of the few games in the series which shows character through battles and stats. It undermines Golbez's character.
FFIV DS Vastly improved this by giving him strong elemental spells and a Magic Barrier where he switches absorptions (similar to Hyne from FFIII). There he is a very fitting boss, he feels threatening that at any moment you could screw up and lose (which I did quite a few times). We could potentially do the same with Golbez in FFIV, and increase his HP to more than 3000 damage till he leaves.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 16, 2014, 11:54:35 PM
I had a thought about Rydia's mother... Maybe the cause of death wasn't "dragon falling." Maybe the dragon was protecting her, so when it fell she was left relatively defenselss. We know Rydia is of very low-HP stock, and presumably Mom was in the battle alone, and therefore in the front row, so no defense bonuses. Eidolons seem to enjoy getting their asses kicked for sport (they make you do it before they'll help you), so it stands to reason their defeat should not kill the summoner directly.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Pinkpuff on January 17, 2014, 03:45:50 AM
Odin being a Paladin that turned into a Dark Knight is a very interesting thought. Dissidia did a good job with Cecil explaining why he is able to control both Dark and Light because neither is inherently good or evil. There is a Lot of mention of battle and war in the various descriptions about Baron in the Scenario Guide but no specific opponent. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that Odin, due to his code of being a Paladin and devoting himself entirely to honor and justice became blind to the corruption at the court (it is interesting to see that Baron has no advisor like Fabul, Eblan, and presumably Damcyan had, I guess Baigan might count, but I saw him mainly as the Guard Leader, maybe with some influence in matters but not a major voice) before he was cast out of his own kingdom because of his own naivete. Perhaps his personal journey around the world could be to come up with a way of reclaiming his kingdom and while on this journey discovers that this code of being a Paladin, while meaning well, paralyzes one's ability to discern truth, and thus decides to don the armor of the Dark Knight in order to wrest his kingdom back from those who had taken it.
I defiintely prefer that kind of angle to the whole good/evil thing. I mean, in Final Fantasy in general, Paladin and Dark Knight are really just jobs; you can have good or evil of either. I mean, Cecil was the same good person when he was a Dark Knight that he was when he was a Paladin. I always saw it as more of a practical thing. How can you fight Golbez' monsters and undeads and such which are immune or resistant to dark when your weapons are all dark elemental? A lot of them are weak to holy though (or at least don't resist it) so a Paladin will be much more effective at that particular task. Likewise in FF Tactics, a lot of the villains are White Mages, Paladins or Holy Knights of some kind or other, but they're more evil then Cecil ever was (for that reason I thought it was very poetic that in War of the Lions they added a Dark Knight generic job but not Paladin).
Maybe the villains would be something similar, like a corrupt church or something; maybe Odin used to belong to it until he realized the corruption. Then he found that as a Paladin he had trouble damaging things with so much holy resistance so he needed to become a dark knight (though it wouldn't use quite those words in-game of course, just like it doesn't in FF4, but makes the gist of it obvious without sounding meta).
The Dark Wave attack even has a sort of self-sacrificial element to it, just like Cover. With Cover, you're sacrificing your own HP to save that of your allies. With Dark Wave you're sacrificing your own HP to deplete that of the enemies.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 17, 2014, 09:19:00 AM
The corrupt church is a favorite trope of ff stories - almost as common as the evil empire. Featured prominently in FFT and FFX, central to a specific chapter in chrono trigger (which sort of counts). I like the angle of "dark knight is just a job," very much.The challenge, in the world of ffiv, is to figure out how to explain the culture shift. Ffiv is pretty blatant about the fact that, in its world, good=light and evil=dark is part of the zeitgeist. So, how did the collective consciousness shift, especially in light of the defeat of a significant holy enemy? It can't be simply the case of an "under the radar hero" like Ramza, because we're talking about Odin/King Baron.
:edit: I guess it could just be that the rise of the barnonian Empire and the subsequent unpleasantness with Golbez is what instilled the notion that Dark=Evil. Seems like that kind of defeats what could be a good plot point in a potential Before-Years, though...
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 17, 2014, 09:46:24 AM
The Dark Wave attack even has a sort of self-sacrificial element to it, just like Cover. With Cover, you're sacrificing your own HP to save that of your allies. With Dark Wave you're sacrificing your own HP to deplete that of the enemies.
Dark Wave is absolutely self-sacrificing. One thing that is clear about the mythos of FFIV is that white=defense and Black=offense. This goes hand-in-hand with your concept. Maybe self-sacrifice is Cecil's thing, and these particular techniques are what he brings to either side of the struggle.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 18, 2014, 03:19:54 AM
That... I have no idea. I think that in life the King of Baron may have been known as Odin. (as in Odin Baron) though this is slightly contradicted by a man in Mist who said that he had heard that the Soul of Odin is sleeping under Baron Castle. It may mean that Odin is the "ancestral spirit" so to speak of the Baronian Kings if its been a long rumor that Odin was known to sleep there. So it would stand to reason that the current Baronian King would speak through him.
I'll go with that - pretty much took everything into account. I wonder then maybe about setting it up so that the Dark Knights were trained because of his continued presence in the castle - either to honor what was perhaps his former core - or maybe even some kind of rebirth type deal. I mean if I were Odin I'd be hanging out waiting for a good one to come along (*off-topic connection below)
What they did with Golbez was silly. Very silly. This is the pivotal battle, the big moment! Golbez is right back kicking after Tellah's Meteo and he's ready to fight! No punches pulled this time, surely!!! Fire2 did 3000 damage to him... He's dead. Hah. This wouldn't be so bad were it not the final battle with Golbez. He comes off as really weak in this battle which is a shame because FFIV is one of the few games in the series which shows character through battles and stats. It undermines Golbez's character.
FFIV DS Vastly improved this by giving him strong elemental spells and a Magic Barrier where he switches absorptions (similar to Hyne from FFIII). There he is a very fitting boss, he feels threatening that at any moment you could screw up and lose (which I did quite a few times). We could potentially do the same with Golbez in FFIV, and increase his HP to more than 3000 damage till he leaves.
I'm definitely all for upping the challenge in that fight. What's funny is that for years in my head I thought of that immediately upon hearing about FF2US being the "easy version" - I thought "yeah, two boss fights in a row - no healing - but that's not fair!!" - ugh (even as a kid I was like oh well "boo-hoo")
- Aside, as a 3rd grader of age 7 in '92 - boy did no-one at school have any idea what I was talking about when I told them about this game. My brother was 15 - it was awesome especially when I earned him Meteo for Rydia - but then we used it and thought "aww man..."
Anyway, definitely onboard with making that battle something else. There is no in-game barrier shift, right? I mean all I can think of are ones that can toggle a single element - but it wouldn't seem to bad to try and set something up. I might try and put a battle script together for it - keeping in my back pocket the information that I just may happen know of an Assembly programmer or a few that could really put something together if needed. :wink:
Given my ideas about what I'm planning to do with Golbez I was going to separate Golbez and Zemus at that point - with an explanation of after the battle with Tellah he was weakened and hesitated about Cecil - or in my context is starting to realize that something in his head isn't adding up and there may be someone else driving his car. Then in the Underground you fight, Rydia swoops in: Zemus looks at her like Comodus seeing Maximus again - decides it's time to regroup, grabs the Crystal, disappears and leaves behind exactly one floor-eating Golbez sprite. I actually took a shot at choreographing that a few months back; but upon review it seems to have been a pretty half-assed half-ass attempt - so that needs to get some work done on it.
- In retesting it I did walk around Giott's Castle - pre-event/closed off as it were, and it turns out that even though you can't get to the Right Tower there are 3 Dwarves guarding the chest with the Dwarven Axe - weirder is the same configuration in the other tower, but they are guarding exactly nothing.
------------------ :offtopic: The whole one person merging with another is something I thought of years back when I was trying to imagine Episode III before it came out. I always thought that instead of it having been Palpatine the whole time (that's what I most recalled from this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPw_5rAWJVo) - Have it look that way but have The Emperor as we knew him from Jedi, but as some other person that to prolong his life and keep his power going clones himself into Palpatine's body - he'd totally go for it if offered. I like that better than knowing that he's like Bahamut - reflect FTW.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 18, 2014, 04:16:18 AM
I had a thought about Rydia's mother... Maybe the cause of death wasn't "dragon falling." Maybe the dragon was protecting her, so when it fell she was left relatively defenselss. We know Rydia is of very low-HP stock, and presumably Mom was in the battle alone, and therefore in the front row, so no defense bonuses. Eidolons seem to enjoy getting their asses kicked for sport (they make you do it before they'll help you), so it stands to reason their defeat should not kill the summoner directly.
Yeah - nice; very simple. What is it with the whole combat thing - Leviathan won't even acknowledge who he is until you beat up on his wife? I remember as kid thinking - "hmm why is Odin so far from everyone else oh wait: '...defeated only once when lightning struck his sword.' - oh he's just a bad sport"
- But yeah, nice call on the mechanics on that one - for some reason (as one can see from my posts) I seem to fixate on such things from time-to-time :blush:
I defiintely prefer that kind of angle to the whole good/evil thing. I mean, in Final Fantasy in general, Paladin and Dark Knight are really just jobs; you can have good or evil of either. I mean, Cecil was the same good person when he was a Dark Knight that he was when he was a Paladin. I always saw it as more of a practical thing. How can you fight Golbez' monsters and undeads and such which are immune or resistant to dark when your weapons are all dark elemental? A lot of them are weak to holy though (or at least don't resist it) so a Paladin will be much more effective at that particular task. Likewise in FF Tactics, a lot of the villains are White Mages, Paladins or Holy Knights of some kind or other, but they're more evil then Cecil ever was (for that reason I thought it was very poetic that in War of the Lions they added a Dark Knight generic job but not Paladin).
Maybe the villains would be something similar, like a corrupt church or something; maybe Odin used to belong to it until he realized the corruption. Then he found that as a Paladin he had trouble damaging things with so much holy resistance so he needed to become a dark knight (though it wouldn't use quite those words in-game of course, just like it doesn't in FF4, but makes the gist of it obvious without sounding meta).
The Dark Wave attack even has a sort of self-sacrificial element to it, just like Cover. With Cover, you're sacrificing your own HP to save that of your allies. With Dark Wave you're sacrificing your own HP to deplete that of the enemies.
Yes! I agree all the way - especially with the setup you cited against the "Holy Rollers" and them not actually being poster examples of 'good.' I understand why there aren't more holy elemental enemies - but I still wish there were. As I write that - The Mist Dragon is considered Holy - right? Why then did they never point out that it was a Dark Knight (and his easily corruptible) companion that attacked and slayed her. I might include a line for that in my story - it would make me feel better about the defeat; like she didn't go down so-so easily.
I agree with this also in that it shouldn't be a 1-to-1 good/evil <--> light/dark But at the same time I do skew towards the traditionals and I look at it like the bias that people as a whole might carry in terms of predjudice - someone commits a crime - that makes him a criminal - but it doesn't define them - unless time after time opportunities to be anything otherwise are removed - then they go to crime full time. Sadly, that statement comes from a much less theoretical part of my brain and one that instead relies more on experience: I grew up in Springfield MA: 12th worst city in America (2011) - It is something that can be debated back and forth, and even I'm not set in stone, but there's definitely something to being curved by public perception and expectation.
I guess it could just be that the rise of the barnonian Empire and the subsequent unpleasantness with Golbez is what instilled the notion that Dark=Evil. Seems like that kind of defeats what could be a good plot point in a potential Before-Years, though...
Also very true - and a bit of a nagging question I had: if Theodor became Golbez under Zemus' influence: where has he been the whole time of Cecil's maturity? Even taking Theodor as young (10-11?) That still leaves him ~15 years of 16+ adulthood that's a total ???? It also seems like Baron didn't turn that slowly just the guys showed up - killed the king, took over, and as quickly as possible started going for the Crystals - it seems a bit off to me
The Dark Wave attack even has a sort of self-sacrificial element to it, just like Cover. With Cover, you're sacrificing your own HP to save that of your allies. With Dark Wave you're sacrificing your own HP to deplete that of the enemies.
Dark Wave is absolutely self-sacrificing. One thing that is clear about the mythos of FFIV is that white=defense and Black=offense. This goes hand-in-hand with your concept. Maybe self-sacrifice is Cecil's thing, and these particular techniques are what he brings to either side of the struggle.
That's a good observation - I never looked at it as two sides of the same action. That does bring me to something I thought of yesterday about the magic system:
I preface this by saying my own immediate follow-up thought was "I probably wouldn't do it - but hmm..." What if instead of White/Black it's a little more like FF6 (which is funny to type - I actually don't like that aspect of the game at all) - But how I mean it is any Mage class can learn any spell - but obviously Palom's Black magic would work far more effectively than White. To have enough room we'd probably have to split magic into Basic/Advanced in place of White/Black.
Just a weird thought that came by - sort of an extension on a complaint I always had with weapons. Gandalf can use a sword - and so can anyone; they just might suck at it. Just like the above idea, not something I'd probably work towards here, but still want it out there.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 18, 2014, 05:30:53 AM
The history in FFIV is just flat out weird. You get the sense that KluYa is this ancient figure who helped shape the world. nobody contemporary really has any idea who he is despite the fact that they all benefit daily from his influence. Yet he has a son who is, what, 18 years old? I'm ok with the idea that heis really old, like lunarians live a long time, but how is this influential alien guy completely erased from history and memory in less than 18 years?
As someone who grew up with FF but not so much LoTR, I always thought it was kind of cheap that Gandalf was such a skilled swordsman. I would've liked to see him cast meteo to defeat the balrog. Or maybe someone should have just told him that balrog is defenseless against Chun Li's yayaya kick.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Pinkpuff on January 18, 2014, 06:04:54 AM
I agree with this also in that it shouldn't be a 1-to-1 good/evil <--> light/dark But at the same time I do skew towards the traditionals and I look at it like the bias that people as a whole might carry in terms of predjudice - someone commits a crime - that makes him a criminal - but it doesn't define them - unless time after time opportunities to be anything otherwise are removed - then they go to crime full time. Sadly, that statement comes from a much less theoretical part of my brain and one that instead relies more on experience: I grew up in Springfield MA: 12th worst city in America (2011) - It is something that can be debated back and forth, and even I'm not set in stone, but there's definitely something to being curved by public perception and expectation.
I get what you mean, but someone who commits a crime is a criminal because that's the definition of the word 'criminal'. There's nothing in the definition of 'Dark Knight' or 'Paladin' that specifies anything about the character's behaviour. I mean, I know they don't have strict definitions or anything, but they're primarily game mechanic constructs more so than anything else; it's more a specification of what your skills and abilities are than what you do with them.
That said, I would certainly agree that certain skill sets are more appropriate/useful to certain kinds of tasks than others. If you're looking to protect people (especially specific people) you probably would want a Paladin. If you're looking to wipe out large armies of small mooks, then, unless they're undead, you probably would prefer a Dark Knight. So it's easy to see how someone might equate "protecting = good" and "killing = bad". But if the person/people you're protecting is/are villains, or the people you're wiping out are an evil invading army, then it's not so clear cut as that.
Just consider the trip to Ordeals vs. the trip back. On the way to the mountain, the DK just destroys everything. For me the twins often don't even get turns. You either fight big fat ravens/zuus which die instantly to Deathbringer, or you fight a bunch of little imps and porcupines which all die in one shot to dark wave. Once you get to the mountan though, then the DK is probably your least useful contributor. He can attack certain monsters, but for reduced damage, and in those zombie battles he's basically using bomb fragments or potions/ethers or parrying. Contrast that with the way back to town. Paladin just wrecks everything on the mountain, but when you get to the overworld, he can take out the little guys but very slowly one-by-one, so he's probably relying on the mages to take them out with their group attacks, and against the giant birds he just has to hack away at them for very modest amounts of damage, again probably relying on the mages for support.
I guess it could just be that the rise of the barnonian Empire and the subsequent unpleasantness with Golbez is what instilled the notion that Dark=Evil. Seems like that kind of defeats what could be a good plot point in a potential Before-Years, though...
Also very true - and a bit of a nagging question I had: if Theodor became Golbez under Zemus' influence: where has he been the whole time of Cecil's maturity? Even taking Theodor as young (10-11?) That still leaves him ~15 years of 16+ adulthood that's a total ???? It also seems like Baron didn't turn that slowly just the guys showed up - killed the king, took over, and as quickly as possible started going for the Crystals - it seems a bit off to me
Agreed... it seems like the king being replaced is something that happened very close to the beginning of FF4; it does seem like it might be too short a timeframe to instill a predjudice in people. Definitely he's been training Dark Knights long before that. It could simply be an extrapolation of the kinds of things Dark Knights are good at and what goals those things are useful for accomplishing, e.g. killing things (particularly people, as in some FF games they have many human opponents as being weak to Dark/Poison), whereas Paladins are good at protecting people and destroying evil spirits and other such undead abominations.
I preface this by saying my own immediate follow-up thought was "I probably wouldn't do it - but hmm..." What if instead of White/Black it's a little more like FF6 (which is funny to type - I actually don't like that aspect of the game at all) - But how I mean it is any Mage class can learn any spell - but obviously Palom's Black magic would work far more effectively than White. To have enough room we'd probably have to split magic into Basic/Advanced in place of White/Black.
Just a weird thought that came by - sort of an extension on a complaint I always had with weapons. Gandalf can use a sword - and so can anyone; they just might suck at it. Just like the above idea, not something I'd probably work towards here, but still want it out there.
Speaking only for myself, such a system wouldn't be my cup of tea. In fact it's one of the things that bothers me about a lot of the later Final Fantasy games (basically 6+, with a couple of exceptions). The characters are very "whitewashed"... that is to say, mostly the same with a few differences rather than mostly different with a few similarities. FF6 isn't quite so bad with it as some of the others, and it only really surfaces in the mid to late part of the game, but it always left a sort of bad taste in my mouth. Especially the ones where, literally, every character has access to every ability with, few exceptions like maybe limit breaks or something. I always preferred games where a character has a specific set of specialized skills which he or she does really well, and sucks at everything else. But that's why you have a party; each character's specialties make up for the shortcomings of the others (in a balanced party that is, though a specialized one can be fun as well, forcing you to find more creative ways around their weaknesses).
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 18, 2014, 09:47:23 AM
I agree with you on the "whitewashed" point 100%, pinkpuff. Ffviii was the most aggregious offender, with a function that allows you to switch EVERYTHING from one character to another in one fell swoop. You, like many others, forgot about poor ffix - so overlooked, and so one of my favorites!
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 18, 2014, 09:58:44 AM
On that note, have you guys (n gals) read the rise and fall of final fantasy (http://socksmakepeoplesexy.net/index.php?a=patff)? Definitely essential reading for anyone on this forum... except pat also neglects the awesomeness of ffix... :bah:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 18, 2014, 12:12:56 PM
I get what you mean, but someone who commits a crime is a criminal because that's the definition of the word 'criminal'. There's nothing in the definition of 'Dark Knight' or 'Paladin' that specifies anything about the character's behaviour. I mean, I know they don't have strict definitions or anything, but they're primarily game mechanic constructs more so than anything else; it's more a specification of what your skills and abilities are than what you do with them.
That said, I would certainly agree that certain skill sets are more appropriate/useful to certain kinds of tasks than others. If you're looking to protect people (especially specific people) you probably would want a Paladin. If you're looking to wipe out large armies of small mooks, then, unless they're undead, you probably would prefer a Dark Knight. So it's easy to see how someone might equate "protecting = good" and "killing = bad". But if the person/people you're protecting is/are villains, or the people you're wiping out are an evil invading army, then it's not so clear cut as that.
Very true! "A man kills another man in battle: they call that 'heroic' - but kill another man in the heat of passion: they call that 'murder'"
Just consider the trip to Ordeals vs. the trip back. On the way to the mountain, the DK just destroys everything. For me the twins often don't even get turns. You either fight big fat ravens/zuus which die instantly to Deathbringer, or you fight a bunch of little imps and porcupines which all die in one shot to dark wave. Once you get to the mountan though, then the DK is probably your least useful contributor. He can attack certain monsters, but for reduced damage, and in those zombie battles he's basically using bomb fragments or potions/ethers or parrying. Contrast that with the way back to town. Paladin just wrecks everything on the mountain, but when you get to the overworld, he can take out the little guys but very slowly one-by-one, so he's probably relying on the mages to take them out with their group attacks, and against the giant birds he just has to hack away at them for very modest amounts of damage, again probably relying on the mages for support.
Wow. I remember having most of those thoughts individually over the various playthroughs but never actually connecting them all together into such a poignent demonstration. You can bet that next time I play that will be the thought! :wink:
... a bit of a nagging question I had: if Theodor became Golbez under Zemus' influence: where has he been the whole time of Cecil's maturity? Even taking Theodor as young (10-11?) That still leaves him ~15 years of 16+ adulthood that's a total ???? It also seems like Baron didn't turn that slowly just the guys showed up - killed the king, took over, and as quickly as possible started going for the Crystals - it seems a bit off to me
Agreed... it seems like the king being replaced is something that happened very close to the beginning of FF4; it does seem like it might be too short a timeframe to instill a predjudice in people. Definitely he's been training Dark Knights long before that. It could simply be an extrapolation of the kinds of things Dark Knights are good at and what goals those things are useful for accomplishing, e.g. killing things (particularly people, as in some FF games they have many human opponents as being weak to Dark/Poison), whereas Paladins are good at protecting people and destroying evil spirits and other such undead abominations.
Quite so. That's also what I keep in the back of my mind about Baron having the strongest military - they trained Dark Knights and supported them with Dragoons - even before the Red Wings that choice in focus seems quite a strong tactical stance to take - certainly not an army I'd want to come up against.
I preface this by saying my own immediate follow-up thought was "I probably wouldn't do it - but hmm..." What if instead of White/Black it's a little more like FF6 (which is funny to type - I actually don't like that aspect of the game at all) - But how I mean it is any Mage class can learn any spell - but obviously Palom's Black magic would work far more effectively than White. To have enough room we'd probably have to split magic into Basic/Advanced in place of White/Black.
Just a weird thought that came by - sort of an extension on a complaint I always had with weapons. Gandalf can use a sword - and so can anyone; they just might suck at it. Just like the above idea, not something I'd probably work towards here, but still want it out there.
Speaking only for myself, such a system wouldn't be my cup of tea. In fact it's one of the things that bothers me about a lot of the later Final Fantasy games (basically 6+, with a couple of exceptions). The characters are very "whitewashed"... that is to say, mostly the same with a few differences rather than mostly different with a few similarities. FF6 isn't quite so bad with it as some of the others, and it only really surfaces in the mid to late part of the game, but it always left a sort of bad taste in my mouth. Especially the ones where, literally, every character has access to every ability with, few exceptions like maybe limit breaks or something. I always preferred games where a character has a specific set of specialized skills which he or she does really well, and sucks at everything else. But that's why you have a party; each character's specialties make up for the shortcomings of the others (in a balanced party that is, though a specialized one can be fun as well, forcing you to find more creative ways around their weaknesses).
It didn't hit me in FF6 until the 2nd playthrough - I was too excited with the first: it was the first Final Fantasy that I was playing solo - my brother had done the others before/in front of me so I knew a lot going in when I eventually went solo. It was then I stopped with the thought "How come Sabin knows more magic than Terra...?"
FF4 is my favorite far and away and a good part of that offset is the core story ("warts and all") built around characters that are actually defined. The freedom to shape is nice, but you can't write so much around that. I had someone (who didn't play RPGs) try to argue that it doesn't matter what they do, because people are who they are. This is true, if they are people that you know and you have a vested emotional interest in them - but you'll never get to that point if everyone is "whitewashed" out (good word for that!) The two examples I offered them were the A-Team: if everyone had interchangeable jobs and skills - who would care? - and the Fantastic 4...what a disaster it would be were they all able to access the same pool of powers... :sad: - Though at the same time I'll always have in the back of my head the scenario of "help her; 'she's hurt' - 'oh, sorry: I only know boom-boom magic' - 'is there nothing you can do?' - 'no, that was a different major...'"
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 18, 2014, 12:33:21 PM
On that note, have you guys (n gals) read the rise and fall of final fantasy (http://socksmakepeoplesexy.net/index.php?a=patff)? Definitely essential reading for anyone on this forum... except pat also neglects the awesomeness of ffix... :bah:
It's ok - I hear you. Up front I confess to not having played it - but that wasn't personal - I never even played 7 until over 10 years after the fact - didn't play 8 either, phew! I do get being in a minority when it comes to preference - I still like the 1st Terminator over the 2nd movie. Two other examples would be that I enjoy the Friday the 13th NES game (notice closing post quote) - and in a sea of endless possibilities: I choose as a hobby insanity-inducing mathematics...though discussing topics on here is working its way up that list!
Just remember this - there will always be one other person on your side about FFIX:
"Hironobu Sakaguchi has stated that Final Fantasy IX is the 'closest to (his) ideal view of what Final Fantasy should be'" - http://rpgsquare.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/why-square-enix-should-look-to-final-fantasy-ix/
I can't even use the creator himself in my Terminator arguments: Man vs Machine is a more compelling story than Machine vs Better "Machine" - but James Cameron himself defends the sequel - it's what a Terminator movie should be - certainly the best movie that came out between The Abyss and Titanic...hmm...
Also, found these articles looking for that quote - pretty interesting stuff - I'm looking through the link you posted, likewise worth a read.
As someone who grew up with FF but not so much LoTR, I always thought it was kind of cheap that Gandalf was such a skilled swordsman. I would've liked to see him cast meteo to defeat the balrog. Or maybe someone should have just told him that balrog is defenseless against Chun Li's yayaya kick.
I forgot to respond to that - and it's too good to miss! No-one can stand-up to The Lightning Kick: particularly in the Animated Movie (worth a watch - I like it) - but that bridge made me laugh so I wanted to make sure I acknowledged that!
- As for Gandalf - oh Hell yes - he should suck, and suck hard when it comes of swordsmanship. It's not easy; you need a lot of practice and to keep on it - but at the same time it does perplex me that the mechanics in place are Mage can't pick up a sword. I practiced for a long time to get good with a sword* - but I never got to test this theory since I have yet to learn magic and my level-up table seems to indicate that I never will.
BTW...that part isn't actually a joke... :blush:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 18, 2014, 01:05:01 PM
Reading those essays will make you want to catch up on the FFs you've missed. FFVIII is my least favorite of the series (which ends at X in my opinion), but even that has its merits... the story is the most warped and intriguingly bizarre out of any - you will laugh out loud if and when you read the imagined genesis or the game in "Rise and Fall"... and Rinoa is by far the cutest out of all the FF girls. FFIX is one of my favorites because it is purposely and pointedly a throwback to the feel of the earlier games (even if the big plot twist is stolen directly from... well I won't ruin the surprise, but those who've played it know what I was about to say), but with all the hardware advantages of the psx.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 18, 2014, 01:41:40 PM
... maybe that's why you can't learn magic...
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on January 18, 2014, 06:56:00 PM
Reading those essays will make you want to catch up on the FFs you've missed. FFVIII is my least favorite of the series (which ends at X in my opinion), but even that has its merits... the story is the most warped and intriguingly bizarre out of any - you will laugh out loud if and when you read the imagined genesis or the game in "Rise and Fall"... and Rinoa is by far the cutest out of all the FF girls. FFIX is one of my favorites because it is purposely and pointedly a throwback to the feel of the earlier games (even if the big plot twist is stolen directly from... well I won't ruin the surprise, but those who've played it know what I was about to say), but with all the hardware advantages of the psx.
There really is no reason for me not to check IX out - it's been recommended to me for years considering how much I liked the 1st game. Keep that picture of Steiner up; I feel like I'll eventually submit - it feels like he's looking at me like I owe him something - kinda like "I Want You" - only more "I Want You - and I Can Kill You..."
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Pinkpuff on January 19, 2014, 04:19:49 AM
It's been a long time since I played 9 but I did enjoy it, and it is definitely one of the "few exceptions" I was thinking of when I qualified that comment.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 19, 2014, 10:00:28 AM
Yeah, you did say that, didn't you? :isuck:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: xcmn on January 19, 2014, 03:17:52 PM
If we're on a 9 trip I must say it has great music!
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 19, 2014, 03:26:45 PM
The only thing holding IX back, in my opinion was its extremely slow battle system, and that wasn't Square's fault, but the hardware. Everything seemed way too... singular... in some respects, there was very little feel of an actual "battle" going on. This wasn't that much of an issue in VII and VIII but in IX it was clear to me they were pushing the limits of the PSX's capabilities.
I hope if they ever remake FFIX they'll make its combat look as smooth as FFIV DS's own.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on January 19, 2014, 05:57:41 PM
Hmm... I probably only played it through once on the psx. All subsequent playthroughs have been on ps2 or 3... would that make a difference? Because I don't really remember ever thinking it was too slow.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on January 20, 2014, 01:07:50 AM
I don't mean in just a slow-down, just that the action seemed a bit stilted in a way that wasn't so felt in FFVII and VIII. Though maybe it's just me? No idea...
So I came across this Awesome video of a couple that sings the entire plot of FFII (the real FFII) and it really dawned on me how good FFII's story really was. If only its gameplay wasn't such a mess...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1OQII2aCYI
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 25, 2014, 10:29:23 PM
"Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days. Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic." - Ouch!
I finally finished my TNL calculations; here's what I 've got:
TNL(Lv+1) = TNL(Lv) + D + Floor[P x Q x R] P = (Lv - F), Q = (Lv + F + 3) & TNL(0) := 0
So it may look bad (better than before though) but it is simple when written out. All that is needed to calculate TNL is a set of 3 parameters per character:
F = Characters 1st Level (As defined in the ROM) D = The 1st Difference (Also from ROM data, D = 2nd ROM TNL - 1st ROM TNL) R = Readjustment Parameter (As determined via error minimization)
The parameters for Dk. Cecil are here as an example:
F=10, D=255, R = 1.853 (Note: 1.379 < R < 1.861 for all characters)
As it is programmed the TNL value for the current level is read at level-up (or join) and carried around in the RAM. My formula calculates the appropriate difference which then is added to the current TNL value to yield the next one.
This is where my expertiese ends. I've made an Excel (2003) sheet that has a table of all my calculated values, the parameters, the original values from the ROM, the error, and a calculator with a character/level select. On the calculator sheet I've written out my poor (and incorrect) attempt to "code" the formula in ASM. I included how I'd write it in C if I had to break them out into the same steps. Unfortunately it is just a little too large to post - so instead attached is a .CSV with just data. I'll update this post with a dropbox link (or similar) later on.
Have a look; let me know what you think. One problem I can imagine would be using 3-place decimals - but you need all of them for accurate calculations. (a good amount of the values are less than 50 off from the actual) The results of the example calculation shown in Excel are:
Dk. Cecil @ Lv 44 & Gains Lv up to 45 ROM / Calc. TNL 60555 / 60543
If this can be implemented it will allow a character at any level (even though I use the original 1st level as a seed value) - but with this I can imagine throwing out shadow characters all together. (eventually - need to deal with equipment, stats, etc.) The only thing needed would be code to read Cecil's current level and adjust the incoming member based on that.
It still came out long...but math is tricky. Now that my life does not consist of extended illness and constant programming/data analysis I plan to be back around more so I can do it for fun instead of as a full time job. Questions/comments as always are encouraged.
:edit: Excel Calculator: http://filehost.flamingfiles.com/53d321dc2da2e - Let me know if this works for everyone, otherwise let me know and I'll post it elsewhere :finger:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on July 25, 2014, 11:26:54 PM
Hey, LordGarmonde, long time. I was just wondering the other day to myself if we'd ever hear from you again.
So this is cool stuff, but the three decimal places might be problematic. In the Monsters Level Up as You Do (http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1940.msg20858#msg20858) hack I developed, I did in essence employ decimals, but the way I did it was by multiplying everything by 255 (shifting a single byte to the left by one full byte in 16-bit mode), then dividing back by 255 when the calculations were done. This worked fine for numbers that are only one byte long, but TNL values are often at least two bytes and sometimes three. I'm not sure I'd be capable of implementing the formula.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on July 25, 2014, 11:58:02 PM
Indeed, it is great to see you back! You were the fourth member of our little squad and your posts were always interesting or encouraging. Again, this post is no exception. This is quite fantastic work but Chillyfeez does present a good reasoning on why the decimals might be a bit much... but if it can work without decimals than there's a possibility it can be used, if we can get out of the dependency of the 5 Slot Shadows and the terrible Exp. tables than the game opens up in a variety of ways!
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 26, 2014, 12:53:07 AM
Thank you for the warm welcome back! I was thinking about something similar to your 255 approach. Of course in my head it is 1024; and not 1024 -1 :finger:
I actually looked around for a while when I first started getting back into the project and one of the things I found was this from romhacking.net:
Source: http://www.romhacking.net/documents/641/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: vic@physci.psu.edu (Vic Ricker) To: "Super Famicom Development Group" <famidev@busop.cit.wayne.edu> Subject: Re: Multiplying/Dividing? Date: Sun, 26 Dec 93 16:29:09 EST
Take a look at this:
Address: $4202/$4203 Name: WRMPYA/WRMPYB Description: Multiplier and multiplicand
These registers perform absolute multiplication by multiplying multiplicand A by multiplier B and return product C which can be read from $4216/$4217 RDMPY.
Set register A, then B. After the B register is set, it will take 8 machine cycles for the multiplication to be completed.
* The A register will not be destroyed by the multiplication process. ^^^ does not refer to the accumulator. it means the multiplicand
Also, there is 8/16 multiply that shares the mode 7 matrix registers: set 16 bit multiplier to $211b and 8 bit multiplicand to $211c the 24 bit product will be placed in $2134-$2136.
The shift-add routine is a great way to multiply. I'm suprised that so many so-called assembly programmers don't know how to do it. Regardless of how fast it is, the hardware stuff blows it away.
There is also a hardware divide:
$4204/4205 is the 16 bit dividend, $4206 is the 8bit divisor, the quotient will be put in $4214, and the remainder in $4216/4217. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I saw at one point that FF6 made use of this...if I was understanding it correctly it almost seemed like if you put two numbers in the right place and then wait (4 cycles I think?) then you will have the product. So truly a black box operation - but it's not something I can quite get my head around. I was also curious about his mention of possibly making use of the mode 7 registers. What you you guys think?
Here's a few more posts I made note of along the way; they may help.
Write $4202, then $4203. 8 “machine cycles†(probably 48 master cycles) after $4203 is set, the product may be read from $4216/7. $4202 will not be altered by this process, thus a new value may be written to $4203 to perform another multiplication without resetting $4202. The multiplication is unsigned. $4202 holds the value $ff on power on and is unchanged on reset.
- OK 8 cycles, not 4. I'll see what I can do with the numbers; the inner workings I leave to the experts :wink:
:edit: Just thought of something: Could we work something in as a conditional. I just looked at my calculated table and for Lv 45 and below everything calculated is under 65k. What if I modified my algorithm to be segmented? :hmm:
:edit: I ran the numbers again - We can get away with two decimal precision.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 26, 2014, 02:46:02 AM
I think this could work: My formula is the sum of three elements:
TNL(Lv+1) = TNL(Lv) + D + Floor[P x Q x R]
TNL(Lv) is pulled from the RAM, D is pulled from the ROM, and the last element is what we need to calculate: Floor[P x Q x R]
P = (Lv - F), Q = (Lv + F + 3) & R is pulled from the ROM
But, there limits imposed on each of the above:
-51 < P < 70
4 < Q < 132
1.379 < R < 1.861
So the theoretical maximum tri-product is 17196 - but checking the table I saw that in actuality it runs from -4929 (FuSoYa @ Lv 1) and 8705 (DkC @ Lv 69)
Calculating DkC's level up at 68 -> 69 the calculation for the last element becomes:
P x Q x R = 58 x 81 x 1.853 = 8705.394
Could we use shifting knowing that we have these constraints on our values; at least that's my current thought since we know the limits and (P x Q x R) is the only multiplication required, could we get by somehow with that? Another idea may be to split the calculation further:
R = 1.853 = 2 - 0.147 Then do: 2 x Q x R - 0.147 x Q x R = (Q x R + Q x R) - 0.147 x Q x R
Something to sleep on. :sleep:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on July 26, 2014, 09:07:42 AM
Yeah, when I was developing my Monster Levelup patch, Assassin popped in and pointed me to the multiplication and division registers, though what you've posted here is a much clearer explanation of how to use them. The good news is, it doesn't really matter whether you know how they work. They just kinda... do. Now, you're by far the most gifted mathematical mind among us, so you tell me: is it possible to express the largest TNL value in the game as itself * 100(dec, or something at least close enough to 100, perhaps 128) yet still no more than three bytes long? Since the math registers aren't equipped to handle decimals or values over three bytes, this would be the only way I can think of to represent two decimal places. Alternatively, if that's not possible, can you think of a reliable algorithm for taking your starting TNL, splitting it up temporarily, performing the necessary functions, then combining the results back to get your final product? Like... let's say TNL starts at (arbitrarily) 5D473F; then AND 000003 and store the result somewhere; then pull back your 5D473F and AND FFFFFC; then divide by 4; then perform all necessary functions on both (5D473C/4) and on 000003; then combine the results to get the final TNL. Anyway, that's just a thought. What I'm saying is, if you can come up with an algorithm that doesn't require decimals (but working with values *100 is ok) and never requires representing values in more than three bytes (therefore never anything higher than 16,777,215), then I think I can assemble the code to perform it.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 26, 2014, 11:38:43 AM
Now, you're by far the most gifted mathematical mind among us...
Thanks chillyfeez :blush: - I'm just glad I can bring something ("other than amorality") to the team :childish: - You're definitely no slouch yourself:
Like... let's say TNL starts at (arbitrarily) 5D473F; then AND 000003 and store the result somewhere; then pull back your 5D473F and AND FFFFFC; then divide by 4; then perform all necessary functions on both (5D473C/4) and on 000003; then combine the results to get the final TNL.
After going through it a few time I'm actually pretty sure I get it - it was just a kinda Matrixesque "Whoa..." when I first read it. But that's why: you + ASM => :yabin: FTW
To answer, though: Yes; I'd think it can! Even if I'm wrong my immediate thought was "Oh it will! Those numbers aren't pushing me around." If I'm following this right (please correct me if otherwise) looking at what I was sketching out last night I think we have it:
Same example as the last post, the largest multiplicative product ever required is 8705 (DkC @ Lv 69)
As calculated from: P x Q x R = 58 x 81 x 1.853 = 8705.394
It's after this point the rest comes into play: TNL(68) and D (for DkC) - but that's all addition
So if we multiply R x 1000 we'd end up at 8,705,394 - then drop the last three and proceed with addition. The highest number in the ROM table is 212,660 so if we do the multiplication separately we can scale up to keep precision - then drop what isn't needed before going on. It also seems we could even keep the 3rd decimal - but if omitting it would speed things up I'd live with it: most characters have a 3rd place of zero anyway - the exceptions being: DkC = 1.853, Edward = 1.472, Rosa = 1.591, and Cecil = 1.435
So laying it out this is what I've got in mind:
As before DkC is at Lv 68, and advances to Lv 69 => We need to end up at TNL(69) = 212,504
TNL currently stored in RAM: TNL(68) = 203,544
1) Pull Lv from RAM & F from ROM 2) Calculate P & Q - Using P = (Lv - F) & Q = (Lv + F + 3) (Here Lv = 68 & F = 10) 3) Multiply P x Q and store (I'll call it M_1) 4) Load R From the ROM & Shift out of decimal range: R = R * (100 or 128) or, if possible, R = R * (1000 or 1024) 5) Recall M_1 and multiply by R Largest Possible Value: P x Q x R = 58 x 81 x (1.853 x 1000) = 8,705,394 6) Shift back yielding: 8,705,394 ---> 8,705 7) Load D for DkC (D = 255) 8) Add to the above: 8,705 + 255 = 8,960 9) Load TNL(68) (From RAM) and add last result: 203,544 + 8,960 = 212,504 :childish:
I didn't cheat, right? Because if not I think we got it! Three-decimal precision and all. I can also easily redefine the R values so that they scale in binary:
R --> R * 1024 so 1.853 x 1024 = 1897.472 => 1897
Which then when carried through and ends up as:
P x Q x R = 58 x 81 x (1897) = 8,912,106 --> 8703.229 => 8,703
8,703 (for 1024) vs 8,705 (for 1000) - I'd accept that for the sake of faster, easier computation:
The ROM table lists 212,468 so the binary shift result is closer anyway!
OK! (Phew...) I'm going to pause here and let you have a look; but I think we've got it! I'm going to start another post with some more math info I collected. :terrydia:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 26, 2014, 11:58:19 AM
Here are a few FF6 links I collected in my attempts to understand ASM and what it can do.
http://www.ff6hacking.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1929 - A set of links to many docs
Multiplication Function Multiplies low bit of A * high bit of A. Stores result in 16-bit A. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- C2/4781: 08 PHP C2/4782: C2 20 REP #$20 C2/4784: 8F 02 42 00 STA $004202 C2/4788: EA NOP C2/4789: EA NOP C2/478A: EA NOP C2/478B: EA NOP C2/478C: AF 16 42 00 LDA $004216 C2/4790: 28 PLP C2/4791: 60 RTS ***********************************************************************
Division Function Divides 16-bit A / 8-bit X Stores answer in 16-bit A. Stores remainder in 8-bit X. ------------------------------------------------------------ C2/4792: 5A PHY C2/4793: 08 PHP C2/4794: C2 20 REP #$20 C2/4796: 8F 04 42 00 STA $004204 C2/479A: E2 30 SEP #$30 C2/479C: 8A TXA C2/479D: 8F 06 42 00 STA $004206 C2/47A1: EA NOP C2/47A2: EA NOP C2/47A3: EA NOP C2/47A4: EA NOP C2/47A5: EA NOP C2/47A6: EA NOP C2/47A7: EA NOP C2/47A8: EA NOP C2/47A9: AF 16 42 00 LDA $004216 C2/47AD: AA TAX C2/47AE: C2 20 REP #$20 C2/47B0: AF 14 42 00 LDA $004214 C2/47B4: 28 PLP C2/47B5: 7A PLY C2/47B6: 60 RTS *********************************************************************** Multiplication Function 2 Results: 16-bit A = (8-bit $E8 * 16-bit A) / 256 24-bit $E8 = 3 byte (8-bit $E8 * 16-bit A) 16-bit $EC = 8-bit $E8 * high byte of A -------------------------------------------- C2/47B7: 08 PHP C2/47B8: E2 20 SEP #$20 C2/47BA: 64 EA STZ $EA C2/47BC: 85 E9 STA $E9 C2/47BE: A5 E8 LDA $E8 C2/47C0: 20 81 47 JSR $4781 C2/47C3: C2 21 REP #$21 C2/47C5: 85 EC STA $EC C2/47C7: A5 E8 LDA $E8 C2/47C9: 20 81 47 JSR $4781 C2/47CC: 85 E8 STA $E8 C2/47CE: A5 EC LDA $EC C2/47D0: 65 E9 ADC $E9 C2/47D2: 85 E9 STA $E9 C2/47D4: 28 PLP C2/47D5: 60 RTS *********************************************************************** Multiplies A (1 byte) by * 1.5 ------------------------------ C2/47D6: 48 PHA C2/47D7: 4A LSR C2/47D8: 18 CLC C2/47D9: 63 01 ADC $01,S C2/47DB: 90 02 BCC $47DF C2/47DD: A9 FF LDA #$FF C2/47DF: 83 01 STA $01,S C2/47E1: 68 PLA C2/47E2: 60 RTS
Interesting stuff! It's obvious that FF6 has quite the following and while I enjoy it I still say FF4-EVER!! :cycle:
The good news is, it doesn't really matter whether you know how they work. They just kinda... do.
So simply stated: so very-very true! :wink: :cookie: for you, sir! :happy:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on July 26, 2014, 01:17:24 PM
Sorry, I can't fully wrap my mind around all this right now, because I'm also trying to accomplish the shadow party mod... I've been operating the past 24 hours under the (false) assumption that TNLs had their own table, when in fact they are included in the level up data table... so... is the plan also to figure out an algorithm for stat bonuses?
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 26, 2014, 01:48:23 PM
so... is the plan also to figure out an algorithm for stat bonuses?
Absolutely! That was always my intention. If we can get past the TNL hang-ups it should be smooth sailing - the rest of the information associated with level-up is far-far more predictable (like MP+ = 4 x( Lv % 10) - or similar). I have all that data on hand as well, I'm currently mapping how best to define the algorithms - for example (I'm making this up) should MP+ = HP+ / 10 + (Character Adjustment Parameter) - or something to this effect
At the end I dream of a base where you need to carry around as little information as possible, and with the ability to add anyone, anytime, at any level.
:edit: OK I wasn't quite making that up - I did see that somewhere before: FuSoYa's Initial HP/MP: 1900/190 - Also his stat gains (until 70) are all zero: so he's done! :tongue:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 26, 2014, 02:47:28 PM
Looking through my notes on stat gain here are some things I've observed. DkC (Good old DkC!) Has the following patterning:
I can definitely write out an algorithm for those - much more patterned than the experience. I just can't believe that there are entries of 0 for MP gain for every level 10 - 69 for DkC. From 70 on it just uses whatever was there for 60-69.
Just like in the experience table there are a few screwball levels that break pattern, but I will work that out over the entire data span. One question I have is just how sensitive are the stats. For example, if DkC starts at Str = 13 normally - would it be really noticeable if I curved things so that we were at say Str = 10? I would think it would be dependent partially on what you are fighting: I say that thinking that it's nothing to lose a damage point at the beginning: It would seem to scale as a percentage of the total damage (more or less) - but would it be noticed.
That question is more from the gut: if playing and you were missing a bit of strength - would you be fighting thinking: "Something is wrong here...?" - I can look at all the math, but for that answer I turn to you.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on July 26, 2014, 04:50:57 PM
I probably wouldn't notice. I think strength really only makes a difference inasmuch as it affects attack multiplier, which it only does every [insert number I don't know] points. So I say, "meh" about starting at 10 instead of 13, but does anybody else want to weigh in on this one?
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 26, 2014, 05:12:26 PM
I'm hoping such changes, if any, will indeed go by unnoticed. If so then I can use the flexibility to guarantee a formula that can be used for stat gain. HP/MP function similarly for each other character as it does for DkC. Rosa, for example gains 8-9 MP/Lv for the entire game. HP always falls into segments where several levels in a range all use the same value.
The other reason I ask is that I need to figure out how to best extrapolate to Lv 1 for the characters with no data. For TNL I more or less averaged the TNL data that was in the ROM and then manually adjusted each character based on their growth rate (given the data they do have) and that average TNL value. DkC was easy enough: he should have Str = 13 at Lv 10, and normally gains at 1/Lv (except when hit with Lv 5 Doom) - So working back I just set his Str = 4 for Lv 1.
Another idea I had (but never quite worked out) was trying to create a base line Exp curve and then having parameters to adjust it: say maybe require magic users to get more Exp before advancing. It's a step towards making a totally new character, but not something I plan to actively pursue. (unless asked)
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on July 26, 2014, 07:17:46 PM
Yes, the stats are really only noticeable when they're effecting something plainly. For instance... Every 8 Strength is an Attack Multiplier. Every 16 Agility is an Attack+Defense Multiplier. Stamina... does something, with defense multipliers, but I'm confident it only works for Shield Bearers. 16 Wisdom is a Magic Attack Multiplier, 16 Will is... something. (Not really sure what or how Magic Defense Multipliers are calculated off the top of my head I know they're in the algorithm guide)
Though why would Magic Users have a larger curve before advancing?
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 26, 2014, 08:04:24 PM
Stamina... does something, with defense multipliers, but I'm confident it only works for Shield Bearers.
Does it play into HP when revived via Life 1? I've seen that in other games; but I've also seen it as just a % of max HP.
Quote
Though why would Magic Users have a larger curve before advancing?
Just an idea for adding more challenge - keeps you from getting magic too early (which obviously could be changed via FF4kster - keep it up PinkPuff!) but also keeps the a bit weaker so you have to be on your guard. What I really had in mind, as far as stat growth was something akin to FFV where jobs play into it.
One idea I have regarding the individual curving would be slow gain to start for mages, but faster levels later and the opposite for fighters - that way you see the people you want to advance level up more often. I'm excited when Rydia advances in level mid-end game: good spells are on the way; but Cecil going up is just kinda 'meh' - more HP. At the same time one could design a character (:cybez:??) that is slow to grow overall, but has the benefit of both fighter & mage attributes: Golbez would kick ass, but you have to work up to it.
Lots of possibilities open up if we can get away from the reference tables. :happy:
:offtopic: I've played so many FF1 hacks so many times that I actually forgot that Magic Defense was a hidden stat in the original release - :laugh:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on July 26, 2014, 08:16:32 PM
Yes, Stamina (why do I keep on calling it Stamina?) Vitality does refer to how much HP you revive with also every 2 (4?) points of Stamina adds a +1 to your Defense Base.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on July 26, 2014, 08:31:09 PM
Also your idea to make the Magic Users start out slow and then pick up speed is quite a good one and here's why from a character perspective, barring Tellah and Rosa the other mages you get are young children so it would stand to reason that being in a couple of battles they couldn't grasp the severity of battle as others but because they're youthful they would adapt to this lifestyle and excel at it, whereas the older party members could become "world weary" (as I suspect that they were trying to show with Tellah and FuSoYa's level ups taking much longer than the other characters) and thus their rate of growth begins to stymie. Rosa is the closest thing the normal comes to a Warrior-Mage. She has the capacity to deal damage and use her magic to help. Rydia, though she has Whips never really gets the Strength (or accuracy) to use them effectively where as Rosa can deal real damage with her Artemis Arrows and has a good chance to inflict statuses with the Status Arrows.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 28, 2014, 05:57:27 AM
Also your idea to make the Magic Users start out slow and then pick up speed is quite a good one and here's why from a character perspective...
Thanks Grimoire! I love how my way of thinking and the thinking here often compliment one another: Good stuff! For this specifically I attacked it (as I do most things) from a more mathematical perspective - and you immediately were there with the logic giving the reason for it all to feel right. :happy:
I hadn't thought about having come upon so many children - that's a really good point; and very rational. One of the many things I do love about FF4 is that it did provide more logical characters: Cecil/Kain/Yang/Edge & Rosa (in a way) are all in the military - so 1st level noobs wouldn't make sense; but it sure does make sense for 5-year old Rydia. It's interesting to even see that in the stat/level gains - I agree that they were definitely tailoring that to fit each character...
A little too much tailoring... Here's a table of the Average HP gains/level (Zero-Filled)
- Any time in the above where it flip-flops (59-60-59-60...) it means that the middle of the spread of HP Gain for that set of levels was a half-integer, just forced high and low to even out but remain integral.
It's easy to see how segmented HP gain is - but really only per individual character - there's nothing to go on across the board. The most consistent set of levels where gains remain universally static (for the most part) is in the 20s, but really that's it.
One thing I'm noticing is that each character growth seems more or less shifted from one another. I see (for example) a lot of bands of 34 of varying length and placement. In moving the data so the 34 segments line up I can see more of the bands line up per character. But it seems so random as to how long before they trade up for a higher gain rate. One thing I plan to do is see if there is any correlation with the growth rate.
So I've got shadow storage complete. That's the easy part. I'm sort of tackling things in order, so next up is awarding experience to shadowed party members. This will be a two-part process - rewriting the experience awarding routine to store experience awards in the right places, as well as rewriting the level-up routine to ignore shadow data (TNL is not stored, and leveling up will instead occur when a character is loaded FROM the shadow). I expect this to be a relatively quick process, but the character loading sequence (from the shadow) will be a massive rewrite.
That it will, my friend, but we're behind you! :cycle:
But from my side of it there is some good news in that regard. As that discussion later lead to the difficulties associated with changing experience awards and how it could alter the flow of the game I remembered one of the reasons I killed myself for accuracy in my derivations. I would argue that the balance between character growth and battle load is one of the biggest keys to the success of a game - and I was very hesitant to change that knowing how hard it could become to rebalance by changing the enemies. But I made it past that bump in the road, so it should be smoother sailing from here:
As stated, the HP gains do follow trends so I can certainly work something out to describe that. MP is almost too easy: especially for Kain, Cid, Edward, and good old DkC. And stats, well, the best I can say at the moment is that "stats are stats" I found the pattern for DkC and I've roughed out most of the others; just need to consolidate and formalize it to really get a good hold.
But the good news is that from other discussions, as well as my insider-trading like perspective on numbers alone I know that I'll be able to give myself some freedom with all of the above - so it should be much easier than the TNL battle turned out to be. For one, there is a much smaller range of numbers to deal with, and with so many levels I can definitely get away with bending the rules a bit.
But that's where I am now. I'm going through what I've collected and like TNL I'll first extrapolate back down to Lv 1 from every character's initial Level and from there I'll work out a general trend. It shouldn't be too bad of a formula in the end either - I expect it won't even be recursive - so that alone will make it way easier to deal with.
Stay tuned for more on this story as it develops :biggs:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 28, 2014, 06:04:13 AM
Quick Request:
You may notice in the above the sudden halt in Yang's HP gain: thank you Square, though really this really isn't that bad when considering... well anyway - I know this is a well known bug, but I was wondering if anyone had handy the data that should be referenced. Worst case I'll hit the ROM with the HP Fix Patch that came out a while back and then check it out in FF4kster. I might also pull it out of the GBA ROM also - which now that I said that I think I'll do at some point just to compare notes.
But if someone happened to have that data at the ready I'd definitely take it. But if you don't now, we all will soon! :finger:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on July 28, 2014, 11:48:22 AM
I believe FF4A was used from thereon out according to the topic anyhow.
I could be wrong, I recall that Vivify's Project II (The Base of FFIV:Combat Boost! for me....) used this patch as well and the numbers are just 152 Average from thereon out. in comparison to average 144 for Levels 44-58. So +8 HP Average, basically.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on July 28, 2014, 12:50:12 PM
doesn't Yang tend to reach 9999 around lv 70 anyway? Maybe I'm wrong, but I know I leveled him way up once, and I remember he far surpassed the rest of the party's HP. I thought he reached max, but maybe not.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on July 28, 2014, 12:56:21 PM
In other versions, definitely. In default FFIV, not quite, he basically stops at around 6300-6500 HP.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 29, 2014, 02:37:00 AM
I could be wrong, I recall that Vivify's Project II (The Base of FFIV:Combat Boost! for me....) used this patch as well and the numbers are just 152 Average from thereon out. in comparison to average 144 for Levels 44-58. So +8 HP Average, basically.
Thank you good sir! This will definitely come in handy. Given chillyfeez's triumph over TNL coding :banonsmash: - I will work on finishing up HP/MP/Stats.
But now for a question:
As we all know FF4 takes a very different approach to later level mechanics. I confess that in the course of any given play through I don't make it into 70+ levels, so really it does matter. But in my trying to work something out for the entire spread should I include that information - or bit and pieces anyway? That speaks to a more general question of randomization: one approach I've considered is along the lines of the following:
Character gains a level Game loads the statistic in question (S) (S) is checked against some average set of stats* S is increased (or decreased) with a probability that scales with the deviation from average **
* As we were discussing before I think there should be two curves: Fighter vs Mage ** I was also imaging that the class of the character in play would factor into how likely stats change
One other thing on my mind (but this would need some play testing) would be to work in a factor for the calculation that can scale how fast and/or how high any given attribute could go. :hmm:
- Sort of similar to chillyfeez's MLA strategy: http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1940.msg20858#msg20858
- Thoughts?
:edit:
Another possibility may be to consider age groups. After the discussion about the range of ages present perhaps that can be a split as well:
Young / Aged: Low gains in Str/Vit, Average Agl, High Wis/Wil Adult: High gains in Str/Vit, Average Agl/Wis/Wil (Or all average)
- These (in my mind at least) would just be an additional factor to play into each calculation. Given the characters as they are that would more or less line up with class so it may be redundant. When I work out the statistics for the statistics of the game (what a weird sentence) I'll post the results for general discussion.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on July 29, 2014, 10:28:00 AM
An early goal of mine which I've still never figured out has been how to make the eight random level up possibilities occur at the starting levels, unfortunately all of my attempts came up glitched or blank. I would love though for stat boosts based on RNG though, it would add a bit more variety to the game and create different setups whether intentional or not. I do wonder if this would work better from a class perspective than an age perspective though in some respects.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on July 29, 2014, 11:27:52 AM
An early goal of mine which I've still never figured out has been how to make the eight random level up possibilities occur at the starting levels, unfortunately all of my attempts came up glitched or blank. I would love though for stat boosts based on RNG though, it would add a bit more variety to the game and create different setups whether intentional or not. I do wonder if this would work better from a class perspective than an age perspective though in some respects.
You mean add some randomness to initial stats? That's a fun idea. There was this Dungeons & Dragons game for Sega Genesis that would let you pick four characters for your starting party then gave you unlimited "re-rolls" to determine your initial stats. I used to spend like an hour starting a new game with that option... On second thought, maybe that's a terrible idea ;)
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on July 29, 2014, 08:48:37 PM
Haha! No, no, not exactly like that. I meant that they'd have their basic starting stats, and then for each level up the RNG would kick in, rather than have it set.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 29, 2014, 11:06:12 PM
Haha! No, no, not exactly like that. I meant that they'd have their basic starting stats, and then for each level up the RNG would kick in, rather than have it set.
I used to spend like an hour starting a new game with that option... On second thought, maybe that's a terrible idea ;)
lol :laugh: You brought back memories of a lot of games: Eye of the Beholder, (D&D :tongue:) Swords and Serpents, Wizardry...oh Wizardry you teasing... That was really not fair for me - I'm a bit obsessive when it comes to honing accuracy and I knew - I had seen - that a high bonus roll was possible. Normally you get 5-9 bonus points to spread around - but if you hold out for a bit (really not too long) 15-19 will come your way...or maybe even 25-29...or 34...or 43...or 52...or 60!! (No spread on any of those).
I fell asleep...NES controller in hand...chasing that rainbow; more than once :wink:
:offtopic: At least that was good preparation - I ended up going to school for math & chemistry - so now when people want to give me a hard time about chasing perfection I can tell them to shove it. :wink:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 30, 2014, 04:33:33 PM
Further development on Stat Gain. Here's the first part:
After looking at more of the attribute tables I am very much leaning towards the more simple strategy as I had sketched out earlier. Given that the way I can see it working is should be that there will need to be 2 sets of the 5 attributes per character: Initial Value (V) and Rate of Change (C). The formula then would be just the just increase (or decrease) every R levels. So writing a formula for the value of an attribute after level up:
Y = X + FLOOR(Lv % C) where X is the Stat now, Y is what it is after gaining the Level - Way easier than my TNL formula!
The only thing left is to optimize the C-parameters for each character for each stat. It's really not so bad - given the constraints of dealing with strictly integers between 1 & 100 you end up with a limited set of choices. In fact it actually ends up being more trouble to try and work out linear equations for each parameter: one reason being the odd-balls: like DkC - starts off with a Will of 3 and drops down to 1 by Lv 20; never to raise again. I will say I do get what they were going for over at Square; so I won't fault them there.
But since I plan to just eyeball it guess and check it shouldn't take too long to compile before I have a working set of values.
MP will quickly follow; though HP I might try and be a bit more scientific about it; though with the tabulated values as they are there are likewise limited possibilities; which works for me! :wink:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 30, 2014, 09:20:05 PM
OK - Here we go. I've put together a table of the stats for each character. The Lv Ct is the number of the levels with stats defined in the ROM which given the data available as 70 - (1st Lv).
The first set of stats are the starting values (as they exist now) and the second set (X/Y) is the rate of change: read as increase by X after Y level gains. Given that as a 1st pass the next step will be to rewrite everything to avoid fractionals above in favor of the modulio approach shown above. That's it for this round - but I'll be back; but first... :sleep:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on July 31, 2014, 10:48:33 AM
I'm having a little trouble reading this... So 4/5 of the time Dark Knight Cecil with gain a Str, where as Paladin Cecil's 1/1 will Always see him gain a point of strength? For instance? Sorry, math has never been my strong point.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 31, 2014, 03:12:57 PM
Yes - you've got it! 4 out of 5 times DkC will go up in Strength. Going off of the stat tables it translates increase Str by 1 for 4 levels - then skip the next gain, and resume.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on July 31, 2014, 07:26:02 PM
Slight break from attributes to talk about MP:
These are the easiest number sets by far. First off several characters just have zeroes for their entire lives (Dk.C, Kain, Edward, Yang, & Cid) and the rest have very little variance:
Looking at that I think it's just easiest to just straight reference it - except, of course, much more efficiently then have Rosa sport 89 entries corresponding to MP+(8-9). To condense the data I would think the best scheme would be to specify as few parameters as required for each character: so what I mean by that would be to code Cecil as:
If Lv < 70 MP = MP + 4 Else MP = MP + 8 + Rnd(0...1) EndIf So for Cecil we would need to store 70 as the 1st jump point, and then 4 & (8-9) for the gains in those regions. In my "coding" I just wrote it as 8 and then randomizing the range - but it may be more efficient to write it as Rnd(8...9) - or they could work out to be equivalent in ASM - I don't know; but I'm hoping someone will tell me :wink:
The reason I'm thinking about that aspect specifically is that HP follows much the same pattern - only with many more stops along the way (often in sets of 8-12 levels). But the ranges there are formulaic as well:
Level HP(+) 10 - 19 20 - 22 20 - 29 30 - 33 30 - 39 40 - 45 40 - 49 50 - 56 50 - 59 60 - 67 60 - 99 70 - 78 - This corresponds to Dk.C and it can all be represented by*:
HP(+) = 10 * (1 + INT(Lv/10)) + 1 + Rnd(0...X) With X := Lv - INT(Lv/10) <--- There are probably easier ways to represent this...**
* The allowance here being that I'm fudging to make the earlier ranges 20-23, and 30-34 - to better fit with the later ranges ** ...But I don't know how best to implement random values and modulo so I instead went for what I'd do in Excel off the top of my head - please feel welcomed to share any number of better programming solutions.
The moral of the story is that I can definitely tackle HP as I suggest handling MP; but I'll probably go for a linear formula. Given the complexity of TNL the HP code should be no problem; it definitely shouldn't* be recursive just the old Y = mX + b - whatever they turn out to be for each character.
Now that I have Yang's corrected data (thank again!) I can tackle that issue. After that it will be an overall clean/write-up for everything regarding levels which I will release in Excel as well as a csv for easy data reference.
:edit: *It shouldn't have to be recursive but it might end up so - it all depends: just how strong is the OCD-side of The Force?
:edit: Slight delay...to quote Butter's Stotch: "Oh...I hate my stupid psychotic brain..." - But still it's coming along
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on August 02, 2014, 11:56:56 PM
Good News!
I have HP mostly worked out - I just went through the first pass of error minimization. I ended up settling on a rather strange approach, but it seems to work well. At present two parameters will be stored per character, Slope (m) and Intercept (b). The formula itself is not recursive and is indeed as I hoped just a linear equation:
Y = m*X + b Where Y will be the new HP value, and X will be dependent on Level
I say dependent because what I ended up deriving (with surprising accuracy) was a linear relationship between the Max HP for a desired character (@ some Level, Lv) and the Max HP at that same level for Rydia. So it will work out along these lines:
1) Compute Rydia's HP for the current level* 2) Lookup the two parameters for the character in question 3) Apply the above linear formula yielding the HP required**
*This is still a little in the air (but I'm pretty sure how it will go). What I mean is how I'm going to compute Rydia's HP: It will likely be conditional as it is now - but her gain is fairly predictable so it shouldn't be too crazy. **This will require 3-decimal precision - but now we know the secret knock. Fortunately since this formula isn't recursive it only requires one such calculation (from decimals ranging from ~0.4 - 0.9)
More on this tomorrow. :sleep:
:edit: Accidentally inverted one of multipliers => Actual Range: 0.4250 - 2.4370 (See Next Post)
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on August 03, 2014, 09:50:18 AM
Slight delay - another attack of the OCDs...
But it's looking good - here's what I have as far as Hit Points:
Formula to calculate Rydia's Min. HP based on Level***
Formula to calculate Min. HP for any character based on Rydia's Min. HP
Formula to calculate Rydia's Max. HP based on her Min. HP
Formula to calculate Max. HP for any character based on Rydia's Max. HP*
*I'm still tweaking the numbers to get the best possible correlation.
*** HP is itself a recursive calculation so at the moment the first required calculation (Rydia's Min HP) is likewise recursive. Here's a conditional description (which condenses Square's HP+ table)
---Code Moved Below--- I've nothing more elegant than that at the moment. The numbers are quite predictable enough to allow for an easy modulo formula - but I've still got it in the back of my mind. I think at least I could come up with one to hit the transition points (T) reducing the conditional set. Either way it should be relatively easy to get your hands on any give required HP value - most of which can be calculated in a single step after the TNL/Stat loop completes.
It was unfortunate that I wasn't able to to better match the gains themselves - there are too many curveballs and with such a small range of data and what would appear to be a good set of manual readjustments at Square this is the best way. I also had to work out a way to keep track of random HP bonuses already gained otherwise there'd be a risk of possibly losing HP at a Level up - That would just plain suck!
Taking a short break for now but I'll "be back in a while so don't nobody go nowhere." :finger:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on August 03, 2014, 02:25:41 PM
OK - Got it! It turned out to be easier than I thought - I was making it harder than it needed to be; I do that... :blush: Anyway - Here's the "code:"
Load Current Level (as Lv) Switch Case Lv -- Set Gain to Follow Rydia's ROM Table G is actually G/8 Case 01 < Lv < 09; G = 1 Case 09 < Lv < 15; G = 2 Case 15 < Lv < 22; G = 3 Case 22 < Lv < 30; G = 4 Case 30 < Lv < 40; G = 5 Case 40 < Lv < 44; G = 6 Case 44 < Lv < 50; G = 7 Case 50 < Lv < 60; G = 8 Case 60 < Lv < 69; G = 9 Case 69 < Lv < 99; G = 10 End Select Load HP Increase Rate for Character (AKA Slope = M) G = G * M -- (Tellah) 435 < M < 2495 (Yang) G = G * RND(1, 1.115) -- Corresponds to Expected Range of Gain (8-9, 120-132, etc.) G = FLOOR(G/128) -- Stored M Values are Actual M * 1024, This also accounts for G/8 H(Lv+1) = H(Lv) + G -- Add HP Gained to Current MAX HP and We're Done!
Other than the the ugly Case-Select it didn't turn out too bad. My big worry was keeping accuracy as the HP between characters spread out more and more, but really it held pretty well. This will require that two parameters be stored per character: The Slope (M) and the Base Offset (AKA Intercept = B). The values for which are:
Char.(M)(B) DkC947130 Kain168460 Rydia102430 Tellah435230 Edward95225 Rosa135450 Yang2495110 Porom97840 Palom88640 Cecil1588600 Cid2179260 Edge1348240 B also corresponds to the HP Max for each character at Level 1 - I Selected these based on each Character's known starting values - when calculating familiar values will appear for the level the character originally appeared at: i.e. 200 for Lv 10 DkC, 340 for Lv 20 Tellah, 789 For Lv 25 Edge (vs 790) etc.
I'm heading out for a bit - but I'll be back on later. As always questions are welcome - Enjoy! :childish:
:edit: I forgot to mention that I removed FuSoYa from the data set because he has only has late-game data and it is very static and pattern-breaking. Specifically he starts at Lv 50 with a Max HP of 1900 and gains 21 +/- 1 HP per level up through 99.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on August 04, 2014, 04:09:29 PM
Working on the pseudo-code for Stats and MP - I'll be back!
In the meantime here are a few interesting ASM links. I'm sure the second page is child's play to you guys (and gals - can't forget Pink!) - but it's still a good reference to have around. I also came upon a pretty neat randomizing routine.
;Pseudo-Random Number Generator for SNES ;(C) 2001 Realtime Simulations and Roleplaying Games ;Coding by Grog
;There are numerous algorithms for generating psuedo-random numbers; I chose ; this one because it is fast and very easy to implement on a 65816: ; R1, R2, R3, and R4 are 8-bit unsigned integers ; R1 is the current random number, R2-R4 are the 2nd through 4th oldest ; BYTE Random(DWORD seed=0){ ; static BYTE R1,R2,R3,R4; ; if(seed != 0){ ; R1=seed>>24; R2=seed>>16; R3=seed>>8; R4=seed; ; } ; R4=R3; R3=R2; R2=R1; ; if(R2>R3) ; R1=R3+R4; ; else ; R1=R2+R4; ; return R1; ; } ; ;Note that the seed value should be as random as possible and cannot be zero ;This sequence starts to repeat after somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million ;iterations, according to my testing. There is also an unfortunate bias ;towards odd numbers that I couldn't get out of it without complicating things ;more than I liked. The bias isn't bad; there's about the odds of an odd num ;are about 60%. This algorithm is plenty good for a game's needs, but is ;definately NOT scientific quality. Note that this technique also needs 4 ;bytes of RAM, preferably in direct page.
RandomBytes EQU $500 ;arbitrary RAM address for the Rand data R1 EQU RandomBytes + 0 R2 EQU RandomBytes + 1 R3 EQU RandomBytes + 2 R4 EQU RandomBytes + 3
;RandomSeed -- seed the random number generator ;In: X==Seed value (16-bit) low ; Y==Seed value (16-bit) high ;Out: none ;Modifies: R1, R2, R3, R4, flags
;Random -- return a pseudorandom number (8-bit) ;In: none ;Out: A==random number (8-bit) ;Modifies: R1, R2, R3, R4, A, Flags
Random: .mem 8 ;Assume 8-bit accumulator LDA R3 STA R4 ;R4=R3 LDA R2 STA R3 ;R3=R2 LDA R1 STA R2 ;R2=R1 CMP R3 BMI R3_Greater ;If R3>R2 Then Goto R3_Greater LDA R3 CLC ADC R4 STA R1 ;R1=R3+R4 MOD 256 RTS ;Return R1 R3_Greater: CLC ADC R4 STA R1 ;R1=R2+R4 MOD 256 RTS ;Return R1 Source: https://github.com/optixx/snes/blob/master/libs/RANDOM.ASM (As it appeared 8/4/14)
Of course none of this answers my original purpose in searching after thinking " There has got to be a better way to write 4 out of 5 levels that isn't 1 - FLOOR(1 - MOD(Lv,5)/5)" :tongue:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on August 08, 2014, 12:28:12 AM
Quick update on Stats:
As far as I'm concerned those stat tables should start packing because I plan to give them the boot! :lungs:
The plan (which should work, I did it for DkC and I know the rest are similar enough) is to dedicate 5 bytes per character to describe their stat growth: one for each attribute. The way I've found best to describe stat gain was to define growth in terms of blocks of 5 levels each. By that I mean that for DkC I've assigned him a value of 23 for Strength gain. That number corresponds to a set of basis vectors (see below) that can be referenced bitwise:
So each vector (row) corresponds to which level in a set of 5 should be set to +1.
For DkC 23 breaks down to 16 + 4 + 2 + 1 or as a set of stat increases as: 1,1,1,0,1 meaning that at Lv 20 he should gain Str - same for 21 & 22 - then skip 23 - increase again at 24 - then repeat. Comparing the results of that sequence vs what is tabulated (when similarly starting at Lv 10 and Str = 13) I come up with 9 instances between Lv 10 and 70 where his Str is off by 1 - which really translates to him having had gained a point of Str either one level early or one level late. Only off by 1 for 9/60 levels corresponds to DkC being off on an average of 15/100 of a stat point in reference to the ROM table at any given level in the sequence. I'll TAKE IT! :childish:
Needless to say I'm pretty pleased with how this turned out. I did his other stats with similar results and given the earlier discussion about not being able to notice slight stat variations I'm confident with the present "Eureka!" As it stands the only problem are the few odd cases; like DkC's Will - starts at 3 - and drops to 1 where it remains. That, at this moment, I am not sure how best to handle. But at the very least I can always add more rows to the table to flag sign changes. Yang also springs to mind due to his high strength gain, which works out to adding an additional Str point every 4th level - on top of already increasing strength by 1 every level. But those exceptions are few and could be dealt with case-by-case, or again by adding rows. I am also considering storing another variable corresponding to any such exceptions.
I'll work this out over the next few days and write up the pseudo-code if needed; but I think most here are more familiar then I with that kind of splitting scheme - I didn't even think about such a clever consolidation of choices until looking at FF1 information. Also I'll finish working out the parameters for each character - though up front it is slow going as I have to do each stat for each character 1-by-1; but it's worth it! Please comment/question as you see fit - suggestions are very welcome - but for me: :sleep:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on August 08, 2014, 09:27:52 AM
That's pretty ingenious. Kind of hilarious to consider that the original game developers, whose job it is (was) to think about everything they do in mathematical terms, and who were literally limited by the physical space required to house a MB of data within a game cartridge, decided to represent essentially the same stat progression in a table that is around a thousand bytes long.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on August 08, 2014, 02:51:36 PM
I agree with Chillyfeez, this idea to cut down on space and make formulas for level-ups rather than the silly "Set By Set!" the original game uses is very well thought out, now if only we could escape TNL and we'd be golden...
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on August 08, 2014, 03:27:53 PM
Kind of hilarious to consider that the original game developers, whose job it is (was) to think about everything they do in mathematical terms, and who were literally limited by the physical space required to house a MB of data within a game cartridge, decided to represent essentially the same stat progression in a table that is around a thousand bytes long.
Yeah - it was that initial abhorrence that really drove me in the beginning - upon later return it was goal of expanding the playing field that kept me at it. That and of course everyone's continued efforts and support.
I agree with Chillyfeez, this idea to cut down on space and make formulas for level-ups rather than the silly "Set By Set!" the original game uses is very well thought out, now if only we could escape TNL and we'd be golden...
That too was something I noticed months back as well - the prospect of new space to work with - though I didn't really appreciate it. I looked at the space gained (minus whatever coding is needed) but still didn't really get it - very Happy Gilmore: "400 yards...is that good?" :blush:
Now - I must confess I haven't completed the stats for everyone - but I sketched something out that left me so :whoa: I had to throw it out there...
With my current approach for attributes it requires 5 bytes per character (and then of course an additional 5 for starting values). I picked 5 because the character set all have start levels which are multiples of 5. Another reason being that in my multiple passes at the data one thing stood out in that by-and-large a 5 set is the minimum needed to do the trick: DkC with his Str gain of 1,1,1,1,0 - a set of 1,1,1,0 wouldn't do it - not without some kind of exception. Another reason was that with a basis set of {1,2,4,8,16} the theoretical max would be 31. My thinking beyond that was with 256/32 = 8 I could get all 5 stats into one number...I laughed that one off...and then started trying to work it out anyway... :angry: - I'll be back!
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on August 09, 2014, 10:42:03 AM
Ah? Happy belated birthday Chillyfeez!
As for new characters... there is a host of problems I can think of... One is the availability of Command Sets, another is Spellsets. It looks like FFIV was planned for 16 characters at max (two of those characters were relegated to one-offs for some reason I can't quite comprehend...). What is really lacking for Anna and Golbez I believe is a proper level up system, if your new system can free up enough space for the two of them than that should be a most worthy venture. (Granted I would hope someone would think of a better character to add than Anna, personally, but alas the graphic editors for FFIV are.... well, non-existent. Only the general tools are available.)
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on August 09, 2014, 12:10:25 PM
As for new characters... there is a host of problems I can think of... One is the availability of Command Sets, another is Spellsets. It looks like FFIV was planned for 16 characters at max (two of those characters were relegated to one-offs for some reason I can't quite comprehend...). What is really lacking for Anna and Golbez I believe is a proper level up system, if your new system can free up enough space for the two of them than that should be a most worthy venture. (Granted I would hope someone would think of a better character to add than Anna, personally, but alas the graphic editors for FFIV are.... well, non-existent. Only the general tools are available.)
Spot on with the aforementioned problems; but I like you am drawn to idea of achieving a goal that, I agree, seems to have been so clearly intended in the original design. Anna I could write off in my head as..."Well, 16 slots - leave 1 aside for just Misc. - if she weren't named Anna already that would be my name for such a character...but that leaves 15 to work with - 15 and not 14 1/2, Square..." To turn a phrase from Black Mage: "I wants my Golbez - ya dig?" :cybez:
As for the last bit regarding graphics - that is sad; I know I suck at stuff like that. I know chilly had a good tutorial (really good; even I could do it!) and I remember Zozma had done some work a while back. I also feel like there was a completed set of animations for Golbez & Anna that were posted at one point (PkPaladin..maybe?) - I'll poke around a little later and update this post to make sure I point in the right directions.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on August 09, 2014, 01:10:03 PM
:offtopic: A few distractions before getting back to business...
Because I can't play FF4 and work on it at the same time I often either listen to the music (which I love - no question there) or I watch/listen to videos of play-throughs. Some of ones that come to mind are the sets from HC Bailly - I think he's gone through the original and all the re-releases - that's a lot of FF4 right there. I've watched some...you need to be in the mood for his commentary. The two I most often goto are both from the original FF4j release - a run of the boss battles with Solo Cecil and, as I've grown to call it, the 'F-You-Baigan' TAS run. I call it that for it's exploitation of various bugs, some of which being:
Walking through Mist on the Overworld and then coming in the wrong way
Underflowing gold maxing it out for use throughout
The 64-Floor/Warp Glitch to skip around maps in the Underworld/Moon
Manipulating Palom with Stop, Confusion, and KO to change the response from Porom using Twin
Somehow messing with items (seems similar to the Gunslinger Code in function)
The above applied to bosses by using Grimoires you could not possible have at that point
Messing with the order of spell lists to change some spells (to gain, for instance, Sacrifice)
Screwing with the menu color to overflow various bytes
Hitting a specific combo of spell uses to underflow Tellah's MP...as to...(finally...)
Cast Meteo on Baigan...LOL
It makes me laugh - particularly when only watching out of the corner of my eye but listening - all of a sudden...Red-Tint...Meteo Sound...Victory Dance! Anyway, here's the link for the TAS archive where they explain the glitches better; it also has the YouTube upload embedded: http://tasvideos.org/4198S.html I also found a video where some guy sets up the MP underflow => Meteo glitch - so it can be done by humans :tongue: - I might just have to try it sometime for yucks. His video is actually a play-through of the whole game in ~2.5hrs live for charity; not an insignificant undertaking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcRcbi6GmSg
Also, as mentioned, here's the FF4j Solo Cecil Boss Rush: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UgpKMOK8KA :yabin:
The TAS page is what I find most interesting - it has a very detailed write up as to what the glitches are and how they work - all the way through listing out what ends up overwritting to various lists during glitches... Madness I tells ya! :eek:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on August 09, 2014, 05:19:44 PM
Sort of... :blush: - I felt it was pretty good; I was proud of it...oops...well...at least now I feel better about it :happy: Perhaps I should clairfy:
I've run into too many non-conformities for my tastes - even allowing for wiggle room afforded by the single point differences in stats not contributing all that much overall. Anyway...bottom line is I will definitely still requite a byte of each of the 5 stats (at least I did actually give up that dream earlier than expected). The for this being that I need to slightly increase the basis set, but it hugely expands the final set of possible values. The new plan is as follows ("Get Your Weapons Ready!"):
--Section Removed to Prevent Confusion of Poster--
So the bottom line is that if the value is Odd then double the sum of the 1st two added vectors and then at the end negate the sum of what remains. Going this way allows for the calculation of something complex like (2,0,1,-1,2) Which should be 141 = 128 + 8 + 4 + 1
I didn't catch anything glaring in my logic while writing this out so hopefully there will be no more surprises. I'll be back on later when I work out the remainder of the stats and a sketch of the implementation code - above is just (more or less) the code I'm using in my analysis. - More to come!
:edit: - Logic was sound enough - but not optimal; above kept for reference
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on August 09, 2014, 08:21:28 PM
I stepped away from my computer for a bit but still had this problem on my mind. I thought of some trouble I might run into...when I got back to check sure enough... :angry:
Hopefully 3rd time's the charm...it's certainly simpler than the last one...even though I went from 5-grouping to 6...
--Section Removed to Prevent Confusion of Poster-- Really it should be all element based - which is really just applying MOD(Lv,6) before the above code - but that's just how I've been thinking about it during this workthrough. I think I'm ok with this one...having grouped the data in sets of 6 at glance it seems to conform; but we'll see. I do like that it is more straightforward...simple is good :wink: - I'll be back!
:edit: Sets of 6 levels worked - Poster Note: Used Symmetry of (1,0,1,0,1,0) vs Odd/Even Level
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on August 11, 2014, 11:44:53 AM
:offtopic: In watching various play-throughs two questions popped into mind. After thinking "hmm - I wonder if Grimoire LD wrote those up?" I looked to realize when it comes to LD and dissembled routines I need to remove questioning existance of information and instead go straight to "hey I'll read LD's breakdown!" I've run into missing Wiki pages more often than missing Routines so... you, sir = :cycle:
The even ended up on the same page... LOL
1) Black Hole: http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1883.msg19252#msg19252
Just an observation I guess...watching the DS version in action I often shake my head at messages of "Counter-Attack..." - I like when we had to figure it out. Granted, they did really vary the Monster Scripts - so I get that part...but in thinking about it the only thing I can think of where the game gives you a hint (beyond "Don't attack the mist") was all the way at the end with Black Hole...why? I may not have picked up on it right off - but eventually I'd have seen what was going on; it just struck me as out of place.
I feel like the mechanism is somewhere between Edward's Hide and Rydia being hidden from battle during the Fabul siege. I watched the RAM during that and the game "removed her" from the party by setting her character byte to 0 - but it didn't change anything else for her slot data. It seemed they were banking on you not being in control to reorder the party which would have wiped her out. I realized it was the same confinement with Adult Rydia - Cid leaves - and that's Rydia's spot - you never get to change it until that whole event plays out.
Could there be some way to tap into that? One idea I had, not that I would do it - I'm too simple minded tactically, but the idea would be neat-as-hell to watch in action: what if you could call in a 5th member during battle DW 4-style. The only part that fits me really is the 4/5 member part...I always felt the game was sort of Party-of-Four + Weekly-Guest-Star...but that might just be me.
:hmm: - OK, back to the Stat write up!
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on August 11, 2014, 12:21:46 PM
I believe that the formation itself is something special (just like the Zemus/Zeromus' one) and there's some special code for that specific formation to hide Rydia until that is used, it would be a bit tricky to change that functionality other than the battle formation and the character it summons I would imagine. While TAY was full of those events FFIV seems to have used it only once and only with Adult Rydia.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on August 11, 2014, 08:15:51 PM
It's Done! :childish:
I can't go too much into detail at the moment - but hopefully the Excel file I put together will be self-contained enough for everyone to see what's going on. I have in it all of my work-arounds (TNL, Stats and HP/MP Gain) as well as the original data for quick reference.
Here's a link for the file - let me know if you've a more preferred filehost and I'll re-upload it there.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: Grimoire LD on August 11, 2014, 08:30:19 PM
If only I could read formulas I would try to help you here, but alas, this is far beyond my meager understanding. From what I've seen of the file though it looks pretty good to have a sequential set-up for all of the PC's, without a doubt!
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on August 11, 2014, 09:00:25 PM
I might need you to explain it a bit before we can go any further here.
Specifically, examples that explain where each of the variables come from within a given example. For instance: let's say I want to calculate Rydia's Agi at Lv. 42. I assume that the necessary info would be her starting level (1) and her starting Agi score (4). Then all of your fancy maths come into play... I think I kind of need you to, now that you've figured all of this out, teach me how to use it. I definitely want to eventually implement all of this, but you'll have to guide me for a bit (with the math, I can handle the ASM part).
A couple of other things I should put out there. Even once I do understand it all enough to start coding, I have a couple of other things on my agenda it will have to contend with. I promised myself I would work on finishing the next chapter in my hack once I was done with the Shadow Mod (as in, the chapter I was talking about finishing before I started working on the Shadow Mod) I'm very close (relatively), and I don't want to leave it hanging. Also, I just discovered that TAY is available in the Play Store, meaning I finally own a device that will enable me to play it, so I do intend on spending some of my free time with that as well.
Please don't interpret all this as me brushing you aside, though. I don't want to understate the importance (at least to the world of FFIVhacking) of the potential that is unlocked by what you've done here, and I'm just the kind of nerd to take the next step with it. But I am a bit exhausted, too.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on August 11, 2014, 09:40:20 PM
It's ok - I'm a bit flattered you guys jumped on it so quick :tongue:
Rydia's Agi at Lv. 42. - OK if you're asking in the event that she just joined for the 1st time you would indeed need the starting stat. The table I have in the middle of "Stats_Both" is preadjusted so that everyone's stats correspond to Lv 1. Current level is what is important, as is her growth Stat (82 in this case). 82 = 64 + 16 + 2 which means she gains Agi on every 1st, 3rd, & 6th level gains. Then take the starting Stat value of 4 and run a loop up to 42 adding 1 on every 1st, 3rd, & 6th pass. That's it! Just remember the loop starts at 2, the ROM was originally set up so that gains at Lv 1 are always 0, so they intend Lv 2 entries to correspond to when you reach Lv 2. Doing so give should 24.
If it is just a single gain it is easier since you just run once and if the current level matches the growth distribution you gain, if not then zippo. Hopefully this helps - if not I'll try and work a better example.
As for the rest I appreciate your letting me know your battle plan. After that Shadow patch you definitely earned as long a break as you wish, and I'm very much in support of finishing personal hacks - that's why we are all here, to retell the story our own way so we can all enjoy it anew.
I don't expect it to be an easy project - neither to code nor in hammering out the details. So I totally get backing off for a while; such a task can be overly-consuming. So when you are ready I'll be here; just let me know what else I can do to help.
Also...you haven't played TAY yet?? You sir, in my mind at least, now have a pass for any gripe that might pop into anyone's mind...go, play, enjoy! :wink:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on December 14, 2014, 05:18:06 PM
Well, it seems now more than ever what I'd been using as a signature is more true now than ever:
"Now I know; and knowing makes it even more confusing..." :laugh:
I just glanced over the above discussion and my question is:
:wtf: - what is this "LordGarmonde" guy going on about?? - Oh wait, that's me :hmm: I might need to think a bit to get back in the swing :wink:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on December 14, 2014, 09:49:45 PM
Quote
Ha! 7th Saga! I used to love that game until I discovered how disappointing and seemingly slapdash the end is.
Very true; however, I have seen worse. GTA V, for example, the writing gives up after about 25% of the game - at least 7th Saga only craps out towards the end. It's kinda like a show/book/movie that you like and then turns out to be all a dream...I hate that! :bah:
I have played through every hack (I think) - one interesting idea was from Nati: 7th Saga: The New Class http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/1541/
Among its many flaws, one weakness of The 7th Saga was that the characters were almost carbon copies of each other, limiting replay value. In this hack, based on the improvements already made in my 7th Saga Redux hack, the characters have been given familiar classes based on Final Fantasy 1, with different stats and spells. Because this version can be played with minimal grinding, it?s a lot easier to try out each class and learn its unique playing style. The classes:
RedMage (Kamil): Well-rounded in all areas Fighter (Olvan): Tough physical warrior with healing magic Bl.Mage (Esuna): Powerful offensive mage Bl.Belt (Wilme): Expert in unarmed combat Robot (Lux): The ultimate defensive tank Wh.Mage (Valsu): Healing and support mage Thief (Lejes): Master of stealth and sabotage
There was an earlier release called 7th Fantasy - which I preferred, but either way. The thing about 7th Saga that I like, other than it being a personal childhood throwback, is the apprentice mechanic. It obviously could have been developed further, much like the rest of the game, but it was different compared to the games I had been used to playing.
That brings up a point about FF IV, and why I love it so! There's a good story base, and it is told through the characters in both when they come and go and then who they & the role they fill. Choice is nice, but it hurts the core of a story that can be told. There are ways to try and balance that but I personally prefer something more self-contained.
As far as things go for my personal hack my "master plan" is to try and retell the same core story but to try and alter things around to better flow. At the same time - I'm putting Golbez in the party so who knows how it will really end up looking. I want the game to feel right when you're playing it - and I don't even know if that will be possible.
To that end - I'm curious to hear thoughts about an idea I have to make Cid an NPC. I'd have him "join" your party like the characters seen in FF III. I'd use his slot for Golbez rather than try and expand the roster. I don't know...I feel like I'd end up missing that double-hammer sound effect. :wink:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on December 18, 2014, 08:16:46 PM
"OK Fighter...this is the most complicated technique I've taught you thus far..." -- "Complicated technique, got it..." I love 8-Bit Theatre :happy:
Please note this post is still a work in progress - I know I'm going to have to tweak a few things but I want to write it out on the board so I can see it laid out.
I'm back to thinking about how to get rid of all the Level-Up tables in the ROM. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I'm seeing it the information needed for each character is the following:
Initial Values for: HP, MP, Level, and Stats: (Str, Agl, Vit, Wis, Wil) Growth Data (Per Level) for: HP, MP, and Stats: (Str, Agl, Vit, Wis, Wil) & Finally TNL Data
With the formulas I've derived I can get away with a total of 18 values stored in the ROM - The attachment has the actual values; except for MP gain, I'm still perfecting that. As discussed previously this is gonna be a bi*** :finger: to code but I wanted to make sure my logic is sound.
With the calculations for each character it will eliminate the problems with levels: Edge could calculate TNL data for levels below 25 - so you could add him to the party whenever. The other big advantage is that changing a character's data should be no trouble. You could really just mix and match the numbers from different characters to make a new one: Golbez, for example, in my hack will probably be a mix of Cid & Palom: Cid's HP, Str, Vit and Palom's MP, Agl, Wis, Wil -- or something like this.
It's actually the math I question - I'm positive that once laid out you guys will be able to code it (when time and fortitude allow) :wink:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on December 19, 2014, 12:33:09 AM
The big advantage, in my mind, is the possibility this would open up for a full shadow party. Granted, I made a patch for full shadow party, but it isn't perfect. I think I could make it perfect once you have this all worked out - though it will require rewriting the entire level up routine, which will take a veritable ton of work. I'm thinking it would be another summer project.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on December 19, 2014, 04:42:00 PM
The big advantage, in my mind, is the possibility this would open up for a full shadow party. Granted, I made a patch for full shadow party, but it isn't perfect. I think I could make it perfect once you have this all worked out - though it will require rewriting the entire level up routine, which will take a veritable ton of work. I'm thinking it would be another summer project.
Maybe not. I built that computation algorithm on the premise that putting into effect the results of leveling would be too difficult to be worth it. I would instead hook in right when it looks for the TNL number from the ROM (for example) - only instead of getting the number from the ROM run the code to calculate the value and then return that. Same with the stats, etc. As I recall the actual routine execution was pretty fast if there was no message displayed for every level - that might be a good place to tweak the code and just have it display once - maybe just: "Cecil Leveled Up" - that works for any amount of levels
Still though - it would be quite the task to write the routines to do the calculations. I worked them out before - but really it's just pseudocode - I'm still at ASM Lv 1. :blits:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on April 14, 2015, 09:21:35 PM
Update:
I have the recursion formula worked out for TNL. I've written some test code (using the SNES Development Kit) to utilize the Mode-7 registers to calculate the required values with high accuracy. Since the pacing of the leveling in FF4 is one of the things I love most I just couldn't let it go without the calculated values being as close as possible to those tabulated. :finger:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on April 14, 2015, 11:35:17 PM
Wait - do you know how to actually use the mode 7 registers to perform mathematic operations? I've heard about it being done, but I've never seen the process explained.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on April 15, 2015, 09:03:21 AM
Wait - do you know how to actually use the mode 7 registers to perform mathematic operations? I've heard about it being done, but I've never seen the process explained.
I do; but it took a while to get the hang of the subtleties - like most things :wink:
The most direct reference is from SNES Development Wiki: http://wiki.superfamicom.org/snes/show/Mode+7+-+Rotation
There are two registers that are used for Mode-7 Multiplication (M7M):
Where the 24-bit result (R) can be read from $2134-$2136. I chose the labels since it's easy to remember what's what; specifically P x Q = R.
What I have found to be the limits of use for practical purposes are: P = (0-65535) & Q = (1-128). Q is a signed 8-bit value but for dealing with multiplication I found it best to stick with positive numbers since then there are no overflows which can be a pain to deal with in a 24-bit value without 24-bit operations available. Also the reason I say zero is not allowed for Q is because the multiplication is carried out when Q is written, and if zero is written it seems to not produce a zero result. I'm not sure what causes this specifically, so I've just been avoiding it. Fortunately in my calculations Q is always the current level so it starts at 1 anyway and stays well below 128.
I'll follow up later today/tomorrow with a bit more detail: specifically how to actually work with the registers. For now, however, I have to finish off my taxes... :blush:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on April 15, 2015, 02:32:53 PM
Wow, man, way to wait til the 11th hour... :laugh:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on April 16, 2015, 11:39:33 AM
Wow, man, way to wait til the 11th hour... :laugh:
It's not as bad as it sounds, most of it was done - all old school on paper by me - I just needed to finish it off. The problem I run into is that I tell myself every year "Hire Someone!" and the other half of my brain resists saying "Nah, Dude. You got this!" - But I made it before I had to go to class last night. :wink:
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on April 16, 2015, 02:47:37 PM
Hopefully this will be relatively short - relative to me I mean. :wink:
Using Mode-7 for 24-Bit Multiplication:
If, for example, we need to multiply 60,186 ($EB1A) by 67 ($43) the result should be 4,032,462 ($3D87CE) To do this with the Mode-7 Registers that would require code similar to this:
$2134 = CE $2135 = 87 $2136 = 3D That's useful, but not the purpose for which those registers were designed. They were set up specifically to handle the fractionals that show up in rotation and scaling. So a more appropriate example would be this:
18.29 x 67 = 1225.43 ~ 1,225
The trick needed for this calculation is to upscale the 16-bit multiplicand by 256:
18.29 x 256 = 4682.24 ~ 4,682
Then use that number to do the multiplication as shown above. The result is:
4682 x 67 = 313,694
But because we scaled up before we need to scale down to get the real answer:
313694 / 256 = 1225.37 ~ 1225
So in the end it's 1225.37 vs 1225.43, but since we will just ignore the fractional in the end anyway it doesn't matter. The important thing is that by multiplying by 256 we keep the fractional around for computation and then by dividing by 256 we ignore it for later use. The best part is that the final division doesn't need to be performed: just ignore the value in $2134 and read $2135-$2136 as a 16-Bit value and then that's that!
I do not mind saying that given the hardware this seems a pretty clever method to make games like F-Zero possible; I'd never even have thought that such calculations were taking place. Fortunately there should not be too many conflicts in using these registers for our own purposes since FF4 is not a Mode-7 intensive game.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: chillyfeez on April 16, 2015, 05:36:39 PM
Huh. Cool. How long does it take to get the result? I kznow that when I've used (non-mode 7) math registers before, I've had to put in some EAs in the code because the result takes so-and-so number of cycles to calculate.
Title: Re: The Drawing Board
Post by: LordGarmonde on April 16, 2015, 05:41:58 PM
Instant results - those registers are lightning fast. No delays are necessary.