øAslickproductions.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5f0fck550j2m4m2fpbtkj2vkm1&topic=2084.msg23740e:/My Web Sites/Slick Productions - FFIV Message Board/slickproductions.org/forum/indexdfaf.htmlslickproductions.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5f0fck550j2m4m2fpbtkj2vkm1&topic=2084.0e:/My Web Sites/Slick Productions - FFIV Message Board/slickproductions.org/forum/indexdfaf.html.zx g^ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÈ ,/$OKtext/htmlISO-8859-1gzip0|Ö$ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿTue, 10 Mar 2020 04:47:31 GMT0ó°° ®0®P®€§²ð® g^ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ7-$ Mapping Questions

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Bahamut ZERO

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Mapping Questions
« on: June 29, 2015, 05:09:26 PM »
Before I ask my few questions, here's a little info on what I've been doing with the Map Editor. If you're not into reading a short novel, skip down past the "---" lines to get straight to the questions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The last couple of days I've been experimenting with the Map editor in FF4kster trying to get a grasp of what saves or uses more map space. At first I was a bit confused on why certain things use more/less than others, so I tried a few tests:

1:Combining Shops - my first thought was having weapon/armor shops be on the same map, seperated by 7 tiles (as the player can only see the first 7 tiles ahead of them in any given direction). At first, I thought this was a success, as I noticed the number climb up a bit.. until I realized I had deleted armor shop maps from two places instead of just Troia (my guinea pig map for this experiment). After remaking Agart's armor shop, I ended up with less space than I started. - BUST

Result: Two Tiny maps use less space than one medium-sized map.


2:Adding trees - as odd as it sounds, placing trees in areas where the player wouldn't be able to walk anyway frees up little bits of space (my guess is that the tree tiles have less info tied to them in the Tileset editor, plus they're unwalkable). I got rid of the hidden path in Baron town and closed of the side exits, and got a nice bit back! Plus Cid's got a backyard now, heheh. - Success!


3:Remaking Maps that have spots players never see - Remembering Grimoire's advice about freeing map space in another thread, I set out to remake Kaipo. Using a two-tiled tree as a focal point north of the hospital, I found out that the top three rows are never in view, making them wasted space. After remaking the map
tile-by tile,  I ended up with roughly +20-50 somethings of map space, and now the player can explore a bit more of Kaipo's outskirts to boot. - Success!


4:Removing maps altogether - A no brainer for freeing up map space. Removing the Training Rooms alone gave me a whopping +300 or more somethings (bytes?) of map space to use.  If the save rooms in the towers use seperate maps, one of those could be easily nixed, or even Babil's crystal room (if it's a seperate map from the one in Lunar Casle that is).  - (obvious) Success!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alright, with that random (perhaps useless to most who already know?) info out of the way, here are a few questions on my mind:

1:How many NPCs can be on one particular map? I imagine the highest would be 15ish, but I'm not sure.

2:Is there limit to how many NPCs  that can be on the maps altogether? By that I mean as in how there is a limit to the total amount of triggers one can use.

3:Is there any sort of Copy/Paste capability to the Map Editor? I doubt there is, but if so, it would be wonderful to know!


I had a fourth question to ask which would have been the most important, but I figured it out on my own literally as I was typing. *facepalm*

Fun Fact: Judging by how Damcyan's map is set up, as long as every building's inside uses the "bent arrow" trigger tile in a given town/map, you can take away the transfer triggers to the Overworld completely. This way, instead of having to use triggers to warp out of say, Kaipo, the player can just walk off of the map's boundries to go to the Overworld (like how Damcyan castle does it)!
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Grimoire LD

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2015, 05:22:18 PM »
Always glad to see a bit of experimentation!

1. There can be 12 NPC's in any given map. The reason for this is because it is all the Movement Events will recognize, 12 NPC's and 1 Player.

2. Yes. There can only be 255 NPC's in the Overworld and 255 NPC's in the Underworld/Moon due to how the visibility flags are set up.

3. As far as I recall, there is not. If you use Shift and the direction buttons, you can create a square in which you can replace a square of any size with any given Single Tile. I do not believe copying was ever implemented though.

As for your Kaipo idea... you may want to test that after you've finished the Edward event there.  If it still works fine, great! If not, there may be a reason why those are there.

chillyfeez

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2015, 06:25:42 PM »
Somewhere on this site, Grimoire and I pondered this one. You seem to have gotten some of the ones we hit on, and a few we didn't. Another big one you didn't mention is the Tower of Bab-il crystal room. The map is complete (has a back wall and full detail throughout) but the player never sees north of the eleventh row or so (under normal circumstances, because of the trap door event). You can blank the whole top half out and save somewhere around 300 bytes (yes, bytes, BTW).

As far as the way the data is written affects the amount of space used, you get, essentially, one extra byte for every consecutive tile of the same kind. So adding the extra trees in Baron saves space because you're normalizing the path (and the secret area?) With the rest of the map.
The map data is written out tile-by tile from the top left to the bottom right, except it has the ability to say up to "255 of" any given tile. So instead of (for example) "trees, five of field, ten of tall grass, three of secret passage, fifteen of trees,"  you made it so it just says "thirty-four of trees." The former requires nine bytes. The latter only requires two bytes.

Bahamut ZERO

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2015, 06:38:29 PM »
Quote
1. There can be 12 NPC's in any given map. The reason for this is because it is all the Movement Events will recognize, 12 NPC's and 1 Player.

Ah, I see.  With that in mind, my idea for using one of the crystal rooms (Tower or Lunar) should be feasible at least, if they're different maps!


Quote
2. Yes. There can only be 255 NPC's in the Overworld and 255 NPC's in the Underworld/Moon due to how the visibility flags are set up.

That's actually a much higher number of NPCs than I thought would be available per world. Since I'm nixing most of the dancers to attempt a party-switching system, I should at least a little room to play around with. Hopefully haha.


Quote
3. As far as I recall, there is not. If you use Shift and the direction buttons, you can create a square in which you can replace a square of any size with any given Single Tile. I do not believe copying was ever implemented though.

I actually happened to figure that one out as I was working on Kaipo earlier! I also realized spacebar is a "fill-in" option when I at one point accidentally turned all of the sand into wall tiles lol.


Quote
As for your Kaipo idea... you may want to test that after you've finished the Edward event there.  If it still works fine, great! If not, there may be a reason why those are there.

 There's a bit of working around I need to do, but for the most part it works alright. Since at one point, the event loads the Black Room for the "That Night..." message, I'm going to have the end of the event transfer to the Overworld outside of Kaipo.

The thing is, if I go by the X/Y coordinates in the trigger info, I end up waaay off course (halfway to Troia instead of outside Kaipo). i'm not exactly sure why, but with some trial and error it should be good to go!.

EDIT: Got it! using X125, Y105 for the coordinates transfers perfectly to one tile down from Kaipo on the world map! Now the player won't be warped to the Inn or Hospital when leaving town after the "Rydia Joining" or "Curing Cecil" events.


I also feel like I've got a grasp on how the game handles the two trigger types for map transfers (Dot and Arrow). Seems the game stores the data for the Dot triggers in a stack fashion, so touching an Arrow trigger afterwards takes you back to the last map you Dot transfered from. so if you use  Dot trigger, then try to go to the Overworld by walking past a map's boundry lines, you end up back in the map you Dot transfered from.


Somewhere on this site, Grimoire and I pondered this one. You seem to have gotten some of the ones we hit on, and a few we didn't. Another big one you didn't mention is the Tower of Bab-il crystal room. The map is complete (has a back wall and full detail throughout) but the player never sees north of the eleventh row or so (under normal circumstances, because of the trap door event). You can blank the whole top half out and save somewhere around 300 bytes (yes, bytes, BTW).

As far as the way the data is written affects the amount of space used, you get, essentially, one extra byte for every consecutive tile of the same kind. So adding the extra trees in Baron saves space because you're normalizing the path (and the secret area?) With the rest of the map.
The map data is written out tile-by tile from the top left to the bottom right, except it has the ability to say up to "255 of" any given tile. So instead of (for example) "trees, five of field, ten of tall grass, three of secret passage, fifteen of trees,"  you made it so it just says "thirty-four of trees." The former requires nine bytes. The latter only requires two bytes.

Oh boy! I wonder how many bytes I'll get back when I get rid of the Tower's crystal room entirely? Seeing how my free space skyrocketed from 617 bytes to 1100 something bytes when I deleted the Kaipo map, I imagine I'll have an extra 400-500 to play around with!

Also, I kept the secret area, it's just not so secret anymore haha. I moved Cid's well to the middle of town where the Training room building used to be, then put a little walkway where said well used to be, turning into Cid's backyard. Hidden items are still there of course, and anyone who had no clue of the old secret path in the trees (I was one of those people before FF4kster haha) can find a few more items to keep them alive.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 12:27:35 PM by Bahamut ZERO »
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Rodimus Primal

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2015, 02:29:38 PM »
Interesting information. Does anyone know what NPCs are in game but aren't used? Specifically I need two in Underground Maps.

Grimoire LD

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2015, 04:16:02 PM »
Interesting information. Does anyone know what NPCs are in game but aren't used? Specifically I need two in Underground Maps.

I have this old topic which may be of some help...

http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1974.msg21445#msg21445

Rodimus Primal

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2015, 10:33:57 PM »
It helps, but I need to know if I can delete it without consequence. Deleting the Training Room Outside Soldier in Baron messes up the Baron Dancer. I'm looking through the NPCs in the Tower of Babil and some are on that list, but could it cause events to mess up?

Grimoire LD

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2015, 11:04:24 PM »
It helps, but I need to know if I can delete it without consequence. Deleting the Training Room Outside Soldier in Baron messes up the Baron Dancer. I'm looking through the NPCs in the Tower of Babil and some are on that list, but could it cause events to mess up?

Yes. Because events look at that NPC designation, it doesn't care what NPC is placed where. It just looks to see if Map NPC 12 is there, and if not the new NPC 12 will do whatever was assigned to what was originally there. If that made sense. You need to compensate for the loss or edit the event to the new Map NPC designation of the original NPC.

chillyfeez

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2015, 11:11:00 PM »
Ah, messes up the Baron Dancer as in, makes the dance not work right? If so, then it's probably because of the NPC enumeration in the dancer's event script... Looking at the list of NPCs in Baron Town, if the soldier is earlier on the list than the dancer, then the event script would need to have those numbers adjusted down appropriately... Recent versions of FF4kster make this easier to see with the "view as" option in the event editor. After you delete the soldier, look at the dancer's script to see if the NPC(s) it references have changed as a result. It's kind of a PITA, but not an insurmountable obstacle.
This is, of course, assuming I'm understanding correctly what you mean by "messes up the Baron Dancer."
And of course, this whole thing doesn't help you at all with underground NPCs... But the same gyst applies. If the NPC exists in a location where events take place that make NPCs move, then removing that NPC could potentially have annoying ripples like that.
 :edit:
Grimoire, I think the next time I try to answer a question, I should just wait half an hour to see if you answer it first...
 :laugh:

Rodimus Primal

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2015, 11:18:24 PM »
Well I think the real question is, are there any events I'd need to worry about in the rooms that have what looks like unused NPCs in the Underground? The Tower of Babil has a LOT of unused NPCs in some rooms, but from the looks of it, some rooms may interfere with events.

chillyfeez

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2015, 11:38:37 PM »
Yeah, I'd stick to getting rid of folks who hang out in shops or what-have-you if you want to avoid the hassle of fixing events afterwards. Not much usually happens in shops, and there's often an extra NPC who says some relatively insignificant thing.

Grimoire LD

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2015, 11:50:40 PM »
Well I think the real question is, are there any events I'd need to worry about in the rooms that have what looks like unused NPCs in the Underground? The Tower of Babil has a LOT of unused NPCs in some rooms, but from the looks of it, some rooms may interfere with events.

The Tower of Babil NPC's are for the most part actually part of the Ending! I would not touch them. The Underground shouldn't be approaching it's limits though in terms of NPC usage though, so you should be able to add a fair amount of NPC's using the NPC's at the end of the list.

:edit:
Grimoire, I think the next time I try to answer a question, I should just wait half an hour to see if you answer it first...
 :laugh:

Ah don't worry about it. Two approaches to a question can only help a given situation.

Rodimus Primal

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2015, 11:54:19 PM »
Well the Developer's Office needs 11, the Composer's Room needs 4, and the Break Room needs 5. I got rid of the ones in the old Training Room Upstairs and Downstairs, but I still hit the limit.

Grimoire LD

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2015, 12:39:16 AM »
Well the Developer's Office needs 11, the Composer's Room needs 4, and the Break Room needs 5. I got rid of the ones in the old Training Room Upstairs and Downstairs, but I still hit the limit.

That's... odd. Considering there are 23 in both rooms and what you're describing only requires 20.

Rodimus Primal

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Re: Mapping Questions
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2015, 05:25:47 AM »
I think I may have lost space when I added the Namingway in each town since the Training Rooms are no longer there.