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Grimoire LD

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2014, 09:16:59 AM »
...How did you manage this? I've seen that you can't use an Actor Slot twice, or are these permanent choices as in you add This person to the party you cannot get That person and so on and so forth?

Also yes, KluYa has a big portion to play in an added scene near the end of FFIV:DS.
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chillyfeez

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2014, 09:31:05 AM »
The "big choice" is the only permanent party option.
You can only have one generic or secret character in the party at a time (which is explained in the first few minutes). A Job Card is used to hire them, and one won't join unless the other leaves. Generic characters cannot rejoin, so dismiss Lando, and if you rehire Lando he starts back at Lv 10 again. The secret character does use a shadow slot, though - it's the same slot that handles the data transfer for the "big choice," for efficiency (you can't get the secret character until after the choice is made).
Of the four interchangeables, two are Palom and Porom (all grown up), they are "inseperable," so you choose both or neither. For the sake of ease, I think it will be "these two or those two" at any given time.
So, choice of six generic/secret, multiplied by choice of two or two, multiplied by the big choice option:
6 * 2 * 2 = 24
I actually multiplied wrong before.
 :edit: heh... apparently i can't do maff this morning. 24 is right. Not 30 or 32.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 09:52:07 AM by chillyfeez »
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Grimoire LD

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2014, 11:11:37 AM »
I am glad that you went with that angle, since I really did like how Palom and Porom's relationship had all but deteriorated in TAY (more on Palom's side than Porom) that the two don't even have Twincast when they're grown up, yet they were shown to reconnect in the final chapter in a subtle manner.

I have to say that Palom was my favorite character in TAY, since it shows what became of the prodigy. Though gifted he seems to have become frustrated with his inability to grasp White Magic and stopped working to improve his Black Magic and though he plays at wanting to become a Sage, by the time he's fully grown he realizes in his heart that he simply cannot be and I think this drives a bit of his bitterness early in the story. Which is also why I love the character of Leonora, without even trying she can learn Black and White Magic, though she excels at White Magic she can learn Black Magic and Palom at the end to TAY basically leaves with her to assist her in becoming a Sage, I think Leonora and Palom's relationship is probably my favorite in The After Years.
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Pinkpuff

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2014, 12:10:04 PM »
At first I always thought the King was training Dark Knights because he had been replaced by Cagnazzo but I think Cecil would have realized that something was up long ago if that were the case. From the in-game dialogue I get the impression that Cecil became a dark knight due, at least in part, to pressure from the king to do so. If so there's no way he wouldn't have seen through that disguise from the time he started training to the time he became fleet captain. So maybe for some reason Odin believes in "the dark sword" as a philosophy. He certainly looks like a dark knight, and has a dark-knight-ish ability.

I think it would be a cool poetic reversal if in the prequel, Odin started as a paladin and then for whatever reasons/pressures/events that happened, he became a dark knight!
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chillyfeez

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2014, 12:28:50 PM »
Oooh, I'm getting giddy about the conversation here as it relates to my story.
Leonora's epilogue is one of the big surprises... you dpn't end up in Troia until relatively late inthe game and, well, let's just say things are not at all as one would expect there.

Regarding light vs. Dark, I went a little "midichlorian" in that respect. See, what was always known as Light and Dark is discovered (by P&P) to actually be Earthly and Lunar. It works with Cecil's previous journey - he could not overcome his foe with the dark (lunar) sword because his foe was lunar. Likewise, he could master either side because he was the offspring of a lunarian and an earthling.
Palom could never learn White magic BECAUSE he's a twin. One twin got all the lunar power, the other got all of the earthly power.
The plot of my story revolves heavily around the idea that light and dark do not necessarily mean good and evil - evil (and good) can be born from lunar or earthly sources.
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LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2014, 01:20:01 PM »
Quote from: chillyfeez on January 16, 2014, 09:31:05 AM
I actually multiplied wrong before.
 :edit: heh... apparently i can't do maff this morning. 24 is right. Not 30 or 32.

It's OK there's only 3 kinds of people in the world; the ones who can do math and the ones who can't - Hey it keeps popping up in my head so now you're all infected!  :laugh:
But anyway, that's a pretty kickass concept chillyfeez. I always had in the back of my mind (as others here for sure) the FF4A final party freedom approach. Even in mine I was anticipating Golbez & Rydia to swap - really hit on her being the last Summoner and relating that story-wise to her being the answer to help stop Zemus

From a design standpoint she's just too powerful for my liking - I want her in and out, and when she's last with you it's kind of like FuSoYa - no limit in skills, but also not a permanent addition; kinda like renting a Ferrari (or Tesla!) can't keep it but it's fun to drive for a day! But when you get that Job Card/swap-out code nailed I'm sure I'll 'borrow' it (which will include a note in the ReadMe of '...from chillyfeez <---he's gooood!!')

Quote from: Grimoire LD on January 16, 2014, 11:11:37 AM
I am glad that you went with that angle, since I really did like how Palom and Porom's relationship had all but deteriorated in TAY (more on Palom's side than Porom) that the two don't even have Twincast when they're grown up, yet they were shown to reconnect in the final chapter in a subtle manner.

I have to say that Palom was my favorite character in TAY, since it shows what became of the prodigy.

100% with you on that one - very well done as a story arc. Personally I can relate - I never mastered White Magic either.  :finger:

Quote from: Pinkpuff on January 16, 2014, 12:10:04 PM
So maybe for some reason Odin believes in "the dark sword" as a philosophy. He certainly looks like a dark knight, and has a dark-knight-ish ability.

I think it would be a cool poetic reversal if in the prequel, Odin started as a paladin and then for whatever reasons/pressures/events that happened, he became a dark knight!

I think you're on to something there; I never thought about Odin in-and-of himself; but you're right. Even in Norse Mythology he's not a 1-to-1 with Zeus the supposed King of Perfect Virtue - At the very least Odin would acknowledge "wrong"-doings whereas someone like Zeus would also play it off as 'best for everyone'

That aside, I had heard somewhere that, with few exceptions, "everyone is the hero of their own story" - I can't cite it, there seems to be some confusion at large about the source - anyway I always keep that in mind when "writing" - I really should document more than I do - but again another of my selfish reasons for this Board! - but of course not 100% selfish - anyone is welcome to 'take:' though trying to cite will be nice but one can only do their best (at best anyway)

- More in a moment!
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chillyfeez

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2014, 01:46:26 PM »
The job card system actually doesn't require any custom coding. It's all event-based. Different hireable characters come from different lands - ninja from eblan, dragoon from baron, bard from damcyan, white or black mage from mysidia (no hiring karate masters, but Ursula becomes a permanent character). In the "training" area of each location, there is a Namingway (Jobbingway… Hiringway?) Who asks if you want to hire one, then the menu opens up looking for a Job Card. If you choose Job Card, the proper generic character is added, and the event removes all other generic characters. Of course the Job Card is lost after use. The cards will cost around 5000 gp, making them harder to get early, but no problem beginning around mid-game.
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LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2014, 01:58:09 PM »
:edit: Removed :offtopic: Content

Quote from: chillyfeez on January 16, 2014, 01:46:26 PM
The job card system actually doesn't require any custom coding. It's all event-based. Different hireable characters come from different lands - ninja from eblan, dragoon from baron, bard from damcyan, white or black mage from mysidia (no hiring karate masters, but Ursula becomes a permanent character). In the "training" area of each location, there is a Namingway (Jobbingway… Hiringway?) Who asks if you want to hire one, then the menu opens up looking for a Job Card. If you choose Job Card, the proper generic character is added, and the event removes all other generic characters. Of course the Job Card is lost after use. The cards will cost around 5000 gp, making them harder to get early, but no problem beginning around mid-game.

Nice dude - beautifully simple; I love it!

That's what first popped into mind about swapping out Skills in towns (Trainingway!)

But I was going to write that up with my sketch for stripping the gear from the newly departed (not the dead type specifically - all departed) - I was thinking about carving out a new storage area for that stuff separate from even the Fat Chocobo - Storingway! - but I think I settled on FC in the end anyway instead of rolling the dice with new areas of the sRAM

----- Note to Self: find and post the damn storage code!!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 03:50:01 PM by LordGarmonde »
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LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2014, 02:39:28 PM »
 :offtopic: - Anyone else use Chrome (on Win 7) - The Forum just crashed a few times (prob. my bad)

-----------

Back to the Odin/Dark Knight thinking...

I may be misrecalling/misinterpreting but didn't FF6 go into that a bit - Odin to Raiden? I could see going into the reverse set up a little more - started off a Paladin and then fell - I like it Pinkpuff!

As for reasoning: there's always the love angle - but that is now a cliche. Though you look at something like the Lancelot/Guinevere legend (not present in some of the earliest works I believe) - but anyway, that's a decent foundation with various hit-and-miss portrayals/retellings - In contrast to say Episode III* which is a bad way to tie those together.

Vader, though, is still very much an interest of mine - given the quote above how "wrong" does he actually think he is in day-to-day. He's the archetype for Lawful Evil: as wrong as the Empire is it's not wrong specifically for Vader to enforce the law:

- "The Empire may be corrupt but not all of its citizens are..." - always liked that one

I was sketching out ways to explore that in my setup with Golbez...really having the questions come up about culpability. I don't think Edge was wrong when he forcefully challenges Kain's loyalty - I think everyone else is a little too accepting (but they do know him more) - Edge was kind of a jerk about it anyway - but same problem there - Kain feels personal guilt as shown in the end, as does Golbez when he departs with FuSoYa:

- But you don't get to carry that weight around, you just find out after the fact  :hmm:
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LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2014, 03:05:49 PM »
Quote from: chillyfeez on January 16, 2014, 12:28:50 PM
Oooh, I'm getting giddy about the conversation here as it relates to my story.

Me too it seems  :childish:

Quote from: chillyfeez on January 16, 2014, 12:28:50 PM
Regarding light vs. Dark, I went a little "midichlorian" in that respect. See, what was always known as Light and Dark is discovered (by P&P) to actually be Earthly and Lunar. It works with Cecil's previous journey - he could not overcome his foe with the dark (lunar) sword because his foe was lunar. Likewise, he could master either side because he was the offspring of a lunarian and an earthling.
Palom could never learn White magic BECAUSE he's a twin. One twin got all the lunar power, the other got all of the earthly power.
The plot of my story revolves heavily around the idea that light and dark do not necessarily mean good and evil - evil (and good) can be born from lunar or earthly sources.

For myself I'm OK with that - it works when done right and sounds like a good setup to me! (* See above post Re: Episode III)

(Light/Dark) =/= (Good/Evil)  <-- yes sir + I like the explanation for Cecil: nailed it

Of course now I have to ask:  :wink:

How is Palom going to handle that? Of course I won't ask you to give away anything you don't want to - but it's an internally debated issue for me.

Han Solo (as I understand it) is a good example. I haven't read anything in the Expanded Universe for Star Wars: but I've read a lot about it and I believe that when Han & Leia had children that some of them were stronger with The Force than expected and it was developed that Han is in fact not walking around with an MC of zero - quick reflexes, in both situation analysis and physical dexterity  - great pilot, same thinking, etc. - But Han hated that explaination; he felt it took from him the his accomplishment in developing skill 'Born to be better, etc.' - I so envision there Porom being very happy with this discovery and the associated advances in the understanding of magic...

...but at the same time Palom not taking it well. One response is just straight up anger - physically incapible of having become a Sage - that and/or depression. It's an extremely interesting arc to develop I can't wait to play through it someday!  :childish:


----------------------------

- Slightly off-topic: a couple good Star Wars links I found before Episode III came out:

      http://www.theforce.net/swtc/injuries.html

- Website originally started in '95 about what exactly happened to Anakin and what limitations Vader has - building towards basically reconstructing what younger Anakin would have had to have been - I'm a fan!

      Star Wars: Episode III: Twilight of the Gods by Syndny Cuthbert

(Sci Fi) - It takes place an undefined number of years after the events in 'Attack of the Clones' (Episode II), and tells the story of how Anakin Skywalker finishes his journey to the Dark Side and becomes Lord Darth Vader. (rtf - formatting: http://www.simplyscripts.com/scripts/TwilightoftheGods.rtf )

« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 04:03:31 PM by LordGarmonde »
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Grimoire LD

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2014, 04:26:39 PM »
Odin being a Paladin that turned into a Dark Knight is a very interesting thought. Dissidia did a good job with Cecil explaining why he is able to control both Dark and Light because neither is inherently good or evil. There is a Lot of mention of battle and war in the various descriptions about Baron in the Scenario Guide but no specific opponent. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that Odin, due to his code of being a Paladin and devoting himself entirely to honor and justice became blind to the corruption at the court (it is interesting to see that Baron has no advisor like Fabul, Eblan, and presumably Damcyan had, I guess Baigan might count, but I saw him mainly as the Guard Leader, maybe with some influence in matters but not a major voice) before he was cast out of his own kingdom because of his own naivete. Perhaps his personal journey around the world could be to come up with a way of reclaiming his kingdom and while on this journey discovers that this code of being a Paladin, while meaning well, paralyzes one's ability to discern truth, and thus decides to don the armor of the Dark Knight in order to wrest his kingdom back from those who had taken it.

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LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2014, 05:06:12 PM »
Quote from: Grimoire LD on January 16, 2014, 04:26:39 PM
Odin being a Paladin that turned into a Dark Knight is a very interesting thought. Dissidia did a good job with Cecil explaining why he is able to control both Dark and Light because neither is inherently good or evil...

That's pretty cool. I never played Dissidia but I saw clips of it and read up a bit over the years: I liked that Cecil seemed to be able to go back and forth - it made me think that maybe he finally accepted it. The transition to becoming a Paladin feels a little too much like a do-over rather than coming to terms with it. I'd think it'd be cool if he had a third armor layout that was clearly a mixture of the two extremes - but he does have others right - hmm

Another question I've had is what about KluYa? He's obviously set up as similar to his brother - but why then would his Spirit translate into Cecil becoming a Paladin - it almost seems like a incompatible mix of the two cultures - I don't know
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Grimoire LD

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2014, 05:22:32 PM »
FFIV:DS gives a bit more of his backstory. KluYa apparently went to Earth long ago and in his travels he taught the people of Mysidia magic (likely teaching it to Minh as the background of FFIV said Minh was one of the first mages) and it is implied that he was the one that left the documentation for Cid to build the Airship. Eventually he settled down in what appears to be Or close to Mist.

Here he was killed by a faction of villagers who sought to use the magic that were taught to them by KluYa for war, when KluYa intended the magic he taught only to be used in helping and protecting, because of his past connections to Mysidia it is likely why his soul ended up on Mt. Ordeals.

If this was indeed Mist, then that presents an entirely different view of the Mist Burning, it may not have been so much Zemus but possibly Golbez's will himself, to get revenge on those who had killed his father.

If you wanted to present him as being fully-aware of his lineage and past of course.
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LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2014, 06:04:39 PM »
See - I didn't play the DS version and it bit me in the ass  :lame:

Like most things, I did read up on it, but that was way more informative; so thank you!

Quote from: Grimoire LD on January 16, 2014, 05:22:32 PM
If this was indeed Mist, then that presents an entirely different view of the Mist Burning, it may not have been so much Zemus but possibly Golbez's will himself, to get revenge on those who had killed his father.

If you wanted to present him as being fully-aware of his lineage and past of course.

Absolutely! That's actually perfect too because that really brings it back to the fundamental question of will. The only way to be both a good man and a good soldier is to, when ordered, do as commanded but if the act is wrong a good man will know it so and feel the guilt within: "You are a good man, Cecil" - I've watched the cutscenes before and I was going to think about how to keep inline with the Golbez/Zemus connection:

With Mist the idea that it's just that it was ordered - Golbez may have wanted it too but for much of the game will just be uncertain. In fact, I may leave that open for interpretation because I really don't want to end it with Golbez flashbacking through his life - but then that causes odds with something else I was setting up there...  :whoa:

The other half of the draw for the Mist angle was setting up Rydia as "A New Hope" as it were. I had an idea about her Summoning abilities to be an offset for her that is large enough to build story around. Kinda like Voldemort vs Dumbledore - he's always been hesitant to actually confront Dumbledore "the only wizard he ever feared" and my plan for Giotts Castle are along the lines of "Behold at last the Master of ALL Magic!" - Then summoning the Shadow Dragon with the setup there of he made sure to wipe out Mist quick - Summoners are gone, and with Zemus being unrivaled - that would be that...until Rydia shows up blow that plan away! My explanation for missing it is she's a little girl - Golbez never saw her and then she matured in the Feymarch - just didn't see it - or something anyway!
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LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2014, 06:18:59 PM »
I think I just figured out what my hang-up was that prompted:

Quote from: LordGarmonde on January 16, 2014, 05:06:12 PM
Another question I've had is what about KluYa? He's obviously set up as similar to his brother - but why then would his Spirit translate into Cecil becoming a Paladin - it almost seems like a incompatible mix of the two cultures - I don't know

Grimoire LD nails it!

Quote from: Grimoire LD on January 16, 2014, 05:22:32 PM
Here he was killed by a faction of villagers who sought to use the magic that were taught to them by KluYa for war, when KluYa intended the magic he taught only to be used in helping and protecting, because of his past connections to Mysidia it is likely why his soul ended up on Mt. Ordeals.

KluYa represents the same core principles that also define the Paladin - so of course that's what he can inspire in his son - the virtues of peace infused into a Knight - which in my head was kinda pushing contradiction territory - my seeing KluYa as basically a Pacifist - but he doesn't have to be that Knight himself, just inspire what that Knight is to represent.

Or to put it simply, the way it first entered my mind actually: it is not the Final Fantasy version of "I am a Jedi; like my Father before me." - Though Golbez and Vader definitely went to school together at some point  :tongue:
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