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Paladin

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Re: Create a Bugfix Patch/Hack for All FF4 Versions?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2008, 01:02:39 PM »
Quote from: Deathlike2 on March 20, 2008, 08:50:42 AM
The problem you will be facing is finding a way to rebalance Palom vs Rydia's superiority in every way. That in itself requires tons of thought.

His Boast command is great early game, but late game he will be limited in ability magic-wise to compensate. My final FF4A group includes Porom over Rosa, not that Rosa's inferior  she's superior as an Archer), but Porom gets enough Agility in equipment bonuses to surpass Rosa, which is very important to me when it comes to White Wizards.

....

I'm not sure why you can't make any character "grow" as you'd like.

Both JCE here: http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=169.0

and Edea here:  http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=320.0

Have decoded the Level up data.

You should be able to impose any curve you need on any character to get their stats where you want them. It would just take some work to get the balance you want and the grind of encoding the new values back into the hex format.

With a competent character graphics hack, you should be able to create new characters that don't have to look like the stock ones at all if you wanted. There are some interesting battle sprites that I've thought of using shown on the new Final Fantasy IV Sequel web site: http://www.square-enix.co.jp/mobile/ff/ff4after/characters/index.html

You can balance out any equipment stat bonuses by re-balancing the equipment. I have compiled all the offsets for that from the normal documents and the contributions by others here. (I'm actually working on this right now for my new hack, actually I'm using some of your suggestions Deathlike).

I'm not sure what Porom can equip that is much better than what Rosa can...they should be the same, unless Porom's stats overtake Rosa's...which as I said can be fixed... I think both Porom and Rosa start at level 10 (even if they don't Porom is less than or the same level as Rosa) so one could just overwrite Rosa's level up data with Porom's without even having to encode new curves.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 01:12:28 PM by Paladin »
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Deathlike2

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Re: Create a Bugfix Patch/Hack for All FF4 Versions?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2008, 02:33:31 PM »
Well, there's a difference from making them distinct and making them the exact same.  :tongue:

Porom's equipment choice in FF4A is much better than FF4. FF4A allows Porom to use the Assassin's Dagger plus a number of better options for Agility increases.

They both start with almost the same Agility at level 70 (Porom has 33, Rosa has 22) with Rosa having better overall stats.. though Porom having a bit more Will (Porom 75, Rosa 71).

Porom's weaponry can increase Agility, in the form of the Assassin Dagger (+15 Agi), where Rosa's only option to increase Agility via weaponry is the Artemis Bow (+10 Agi). They both have similar armor sets that increase Agi equally there. The Agi is critical for me though...

If you were to use FF4's equipment data, Porom literally has the same equipment set Rosa has (I could be wrong, but I believe this is the case). This factored with Porom having weaker starting level 70 stats by comparison.. it becomes apparent that some equipment (and preferably stats) have to be heavily tweaked.

I hadn't really noticed the level up data to be that significant before.. but maybe I'm underestimating Square when they did them since they are done pretty well and scale correctly until post level 70 (where there's almost no guarentee that Rosa has 99 Will Power via random chance).
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Paladin

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Re: Create a Bugfix Patch/Hack for All FF4 Versions?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2008, 03:26:41 PM »
Ah...I see...

Well...you could swap Porom's stats for Rosa and replace Porom's with Rosa's...:tongue:

But I think it's unfortunate that there aren't set stats past LV. 70...I mean ok...every time you play it's slightly different...but there's enough "randomizing" in the HP and MP for my taste on that aspect...

However I *think* and this is something I'm going to test in the near future unless someone already knows...there are a number of "odd" bytes at the end of each character's level up data that I *think* are the randomly chosen core 5 stat modifiers for levels past 70.  I don't know what else they'd be used for, and there aren't always the same number fore each character. If this is so, then you could rig it so that the core 5 stats are consistent from 70-99...or perhaps that at the very least a mage would max their will or wisdom stat even if they aren't always the same for the other three. Again I emphasize I haven't proven this yet...just a preliminary test seems to indicate that it is possible this is so. If someone knows already how this works...please correct me if I'm wrong.

Otherwise, giving Rosa (and Porom too) access to better weapons in the classic SNES game is just a Byte change. In fact I was noticing that white mages in FF4 classic can only use staves and bows (except little Rydia but she's special). Even Tellah and Fu are exempt from daggers. That's a change worth making. As we discussed elsewhere, giving Rosa access to some select swords isn't an altogether outrageous idea either. I have a mind to create Rosa a special sword just for her that will be a rare random drop in the Lunar Subterrane which will give a good stat bonus.

But in your example I assume you mean the "uber" assassin dagger in FF4A, which for the classic game is just a matter of making an uber assassin dagger in the FF4A mould out of the existing unused one and making it available to her. Or I guess one could make the Artemis bow better to keep (Rosa or a white mage with the AIM command) aiming and firing...?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 03:32:14 PM by Paladin »
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Deathlike2

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Re: Create a Bugfix Patch/Hack for All FF4 Versions?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2008, 03:45:41 PM »
Quote from: Paladin on March 27, 2008, 03:26:41 PM
Ah...I see...

Well...you could swap Porom's stats for Rosa and replace Porom's with Rosa's...:tongue:

Well, I forgot to mention about the Hero Shield. Rosa doesn't have a viable weapon equivalent (unless you consider the Life/Sage Staff or Silence Staff)... That in itself is enough to boost Porom to insane Agi levels.

Quote
But I think it's unfortunate that there aren't set stats past LV. 70...I mean ok...every time you play it's slightly different...but there's enough "randomizing" in the HP and MP for my taste on that aspect...

For HP/MP, I don't think the differences are drastic.. one of the linked docs somewhere deep in the forum plots max HP/MP growth.. it's not that drastic by any means, but I like it the way it is. Fixed HP/MP feels more like FF5/6, which feels like meh. Oh well.

Quote
Otherwise, giving Rosa (and Porom too) access to better weapons in the classic SNES game is just a Byte change. In fact I was noticing that white mages in FF4 classic can only use staves and bows (except little Rydia but she's special). Even Tellah and Fu are exempt from daggers. That's a change worth making. As we discussed elsewhere, giving Rosa access to some select swords isn't an altogether outrageous idea either. I have a mind to create Rosa a special sword just for her that will be a rare random drop in the Lunar Subterrane which will give a good stat bonus.

Fu? I think I took some of that idea and tweaked it in my post.

Quote
But in your example I assume you mean the "uber" assassin dagger in FF4A, which for the classic game is just a matter of making an uber assassin dagger in the FF4A mould out of the existing unused one and making it available to her. Or I guess one could make the Artemis bow better to keep (Rosa or a white mage with the AIM command) aiming and firing...?

I guess the unused weapon could be accessible somehow.. but that's not the point. I'm trying to compare the discrepencies between the two characters. Rosa's HP growth is needed because her max magic defense multiplier stays at 5 unless you use a Sage/Silence + Minerva Robe combo or get a friggen lucky Artemis Bow drop to go with the White Robe/Dress. Rosa needs that HP growth in FF4A, Porom doesn't. In FF4, only Rosa needs minor bonus tweaks to Agi (or slight stat growth changes)... Porom needs the overhaul... that's just my view on the matter. Then again... Porom's Cry command needs to drastically be more useful... though I have a crazy idea. Give her Palom's Boast command and rework Twin (when she's alone) to cast some of Palom's spell set (I forgot to write this idea earlier)...

All level 3 elementals,
Bio/Virus,
Quake,
Break,
Death,
Weak/Tornado

Same idea as Palom.. just rework Tellah's "Recall" command to a different spell set with greater success.
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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Create a Bugfix Patch/Hack for All FF4 Versions?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2008, 05:25:55 PM »
Quote from: Deathlike2 on March 27, 2008, 02:33:31 PM
FF4A allows Porom to use the Assassin's Dagger...

Which is almost certainly a mistake, since Palom can't equip it and Porom can't use any other knives.
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Deathlike2

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Re: Create a Bugfix Patch/Hack for All FF4 Versions?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2008, 05:29:21 PM »
Quote from: Dragonsbrethren on March 27, 2008, 05:25:55 PM
Quote from: Deathlike2 on March 27, 2008, 02:33:31 PM
FF4A allows Porom to use the Assassin's Dagger...

Which is almost certainly a mistake, since Palom can't equip it and Porom can't use any other knives.

Go figure. I don't think any White Wizard were meant to equip them anyways.

However, balance-wise, this is actually the best thing they did. It's hard to say the same for Palom though... Palom needs a bit more than rebalancing... a total makeover is needed.
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Paladin

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Re: Create a Bugfix Patch/Hack for All FF4 Versions?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2008, 07:08:37 PM »
Well...I'm a little off topic since it seems like your being more hypothetical as to tweaking out and rebalancing FF4A...

My guess is that they didn't put a lot of thought into the Twins since they really didn't ever get used at high level towards the end of the game until FF4A. I wouldn't be surprised if the Twins are exactly the same as they are in the classic game and they just threw in more weapons and equipment for them to use.

The useless status resistances on some equipment makes it clear they just added crap without thinking about it that much or making them worthwhile to add.

Quote from: Deathlike2 on March 27, 2008, 03:45:41 PM

Fu? I think I took some of that idea and tweaked it in my post.


As in "SoYa"  :wink:
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Deathlike2

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Re: Create a Bugfix Patch/Hack for All FF4 Versions?
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2008, 07:24:34 PM »
Quote from: Paladin on March 27, 2008, 07:08:37 PM
Well...I'm a little off topic since it seems like your being more hypothetical as to tweaking out and rebalancing FF4A...

Well, some of it is based on FF4A (there are minute differences, but the majority is the same). Based on that and JCE's hack, it becomes much more clear to me, but perhaps I'm overthinking it too much.

Quote
My guess is that they didn't put a lot of thought into the Twins since they really didn't ever get used at high level towards the end of the game until FF4A. I wouldn't be surprised if the Twins are exactly the same as they are in the classic game and they just threw in more weapons and equipment for them to use.

I think they did, but Yang would be more of the oversight issue than anything... At this point, it's easier to believe that FF4A was what FF4 meant to be in some ways (well, the multi-character end-game option).

Quote
The useless status resistances on some equipment makes it clear they just added crap without thinking about it that much or making them worthwhile to add.

The Ninja Hat and Crystal Armor were never going to be the most innovative pieces of equipment...

Quote
Quote from: Deathlike2 on March 27, 2008, 03:45:41 PM

Fu? I think I took some of that idea and tweaked it in my post.


As in "SoYa"  :wink:

Tellah would be better served with a Bow+Arrow like FuSoYa... but then again, there's not much of a multiplier to work with there...
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Deathlike2

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Re: Create a Bugfix Patch/Hack for All FF4 Versions?
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2008, 08:04:55 AM »
Quote from: Paladin on March 27, 2008, 03:26:41 PM
However I *think* and this is something I'm going to test in the near future unless someone already knows...there are a number of "odd" bytes at the end of each character's level up data that I *think* are the randomly chosen core 5 stat modifiers for levels past 70.  I don't know what else they'd be used for, and there aren't always the same number fore each character. If this is so, then you could rig it so that the core 5 stats are consistent from 70-99...or perhaps that at the very least a mage would max their will or wisdom stat even if they aren't always the same for the other three. Again I emphasize I haven't proven this yet...just a preliminary test seems to indicate that it is possible this is so. If someone knows already how this works...please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think Edea's info covers this nicely... maybe a double check is order?
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Paladin

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Re: Create a Bugfix Patch/Hack for All FF4 Versions?
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2008, 11:21:42 AM »
Quote from: Deathlike2 on March 28, 2008, 08:04:55 AM
Quote from: Paladin on March 27, 2008, 03:26:41 PM
However I *think* and this is something I'm going to test in the near future unless someone already knows...there are a number of "odd" bytes at the end of each character's level up data that I *think* are the randomly chosen core 5 stat modifiers for levels past 70.  I don't know what else they'd be used for, and there aren't always the same number fore each character. If this is so, then you could rig it so that the core 5 stats are consistent from 70-99...or perhaps that at the very least a mage would max their will or wisdom stat even if they aren't always the same for the other three. Again I emphasize I haven't proven this yet...just a preliminary test seems to indicate that it is possible this is so. If someone knows already how this works...please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think Edea's info covers this nicely... maybe a double check is order?

You're right, I see,  he had already documented what I was assuming...I'm not sure why I didn't notice it  :sad:

Anyway...the good thing is that being it is the case that the stat randomizing after level 70 can be controlled, you can then make sure a class will max on a certain stat, randomizing not withstanding.
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