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Pinkpuff

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Re: (Another) FF1 Hack
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2008, 01:47:43 PM »
[spoiler]
Quote from: Deathlike2 on June 13, 2008, 03:26:10 PM
Well, Cur4 isn't joined at the hip with Hel4, which is why disabling this outside of battle doesn't really impact it that much IMO.

If you add it to a monster's battle script, it would be a lot more interesting...

Maybe I will.

Quote
Yea.. but the fasincination with the spell since FF:DOS is to neuter high evasion monsters.. although I don't remember a lot in the original to begin with... so meh.

Yeah I think the spell list is kinda crowded with a lot of Fog/Invs/Lock effects... but I'm also kinda restricted in what I can do. Some of the spell effects don't work (such as "attack up", and I think "remove resistance"?) and others are just a waste ("lower morale", "add blind", "add poison")...

Quote
Let me put it this way. What actually distinguishes the physical power of the Time Mage and the Sage? Absolutely nothing as far as I can tell (I could be wrong, I don't know what the Sage's starting stats are). However, the Sage has uber heal+attack magic at its disposal. The Time Mage is not intended to be that I presume, but White/Black Mage is impacted more by Fast than the Time Mage... that makes no sense (The Time Mage should be on par with the White+Black Mages in terms of physical strength+weapon options). In addition, if you use a dual Dark Knight/Ninja combo (or one of each), the impact of the Time Mage is lessened a tad... not that it's a detriment, but Fst2 isn't that sexy an option...

Ok the mistaken statement is highlighted. The Black and White mages are a bit better physically but they are also a bit worse magically. The Time Mage and Sage get more MP and they get higher level MP sooner.

Quote
I'll see, maybe I'm seeing this wrong. I just know that the original Knight (the upgraded Fighter) had enough irrelevent magic to be useless in that department. Completing the Anti-elemental set plus Pure would've been perfect (in the original game I mean).. I kinda see the same for the Paladin, but I'll have to see that in playing this.

Right, and I agree with that view of the original game. But don't forget that in the original the knight doesn't have access to those spells until after class change, after which point most of the lower level spells (black OR white) are kinda junky. Plus the Paladin in this game does have access to a full anti-elemental set (via WILL & SHEL) and Pure, and even Life.

Also, with regard to the LIF2 vs HRM4 issue... I looked at the spells again and noticed something that I had overlooked when typing the descriptions. LIF2 is Holy elemental whereas the Harm spells are non-elemental. Since all the undeads are weak to holy, LIF2 ought to in practice do 1.5 * the damage it looks like it should do. So although the spell base is technically 240 just like HRM4, LIF2 in practice has a spell base of 360. Now I'm not that familiar with the damage algorithm so I'm not sure if it caps the spell base at 255 after applying the weakness modifier or if it actually allows you to "cheat" the spell base cap in the way I'm attempting, but it's something I'll definitely be testing on my next runthrough. In any case I think LIF2's out-of-battle effect is powerful enough to carry it as being worth a spell slot.

[/spoiler]

By the way I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to play this and for your comments. I really appreciate the feedback.
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Deathlike2

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Re: (Another) FF1 Hack
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2008, 02:42:36 PM »
Some comments...
[spoiler]
Quote from: Pinkpuff on June 15, 2008, 01:47:43 PM
Yeah I think the spell list is kinda crowded with a lot of Fog/Invs/Lock effects... but I'm also kinda restricted in what I can do. Some of the spell effects don't work (such as "attack up", and I think "remove resistance"?) and others are just a waste ("lower morale", "add blind", "add poison")...

Well, IIRC, the Saber magic does work in Grond's hack.. so meh... the other ones are lame, but if Dispel (or whatever it was originally called) was fixed, then we'd have something there.

Quote
Ok the mistaken statement is highlighted. The Black and White mages are a bit better physically but they are also a bit worse magically. The Time Mage and Sage get more MP and they get higher level MP sooner.

I'll elaborate on what I think futher in a different spoiler tag.

Quote
Right, and I agree with that view of the original game. But don't forget that in the original the knight doesn't have access to those spells until after class change, after which point most of the lower level spells (black OR white) are kinda junky. Plus the Paladin in this game does have access to a full anti-elemental set (via WILL & SHEL) and Pure, and even Life.

It's not enough in this hack, which I'll explain later.

Quote
Also, with regard to the LIF2 vs HRM4 issue... I looked at the spells again and noticed something that I had overlooked when typing the descriptions. LIF2 is Holy elemental whereas the Harm spells are non-elemental. Since all the undeads are weak to holy, LIF2 ought to in practice do 1.5 * the damage it looks like it should do. So although the spell base is technically 240 just like HRM4, LIF2 in practice has a spell base of 360. Now I'm not that familiar with the damage algorithm so I'm not sure if it caps the spell base at 255 after applying the weakness modifier or if it actually allows you to "cheat" the spell base cap in the way I'm attempting, but it's something I'll definitely be testing on my next runthrough. In any case I think LIF2's out-of-battle effect is powerful enough to carry it as being worth a spell slot.

I ended up picking Holy over Life2, and there's a few reasons for that.
[/spoiler]

Quote
By the way I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to play this and for your comments. I really appreciate the feedback.

I'll have a critique in a few.. after I beat the man w/o a special tune.
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Deathlike2

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Re: (Another) FF1 Hack
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2008, 03:14:58 PM »
Ok, done.

Here's some comments.

[spoiler]
I liked the hack, but there are just various imbalances that drove me up a wall...

1) There are simply too many undead early, and too few late. This led to my decision to choose Holy over Lif2 for that very reason alone. I like were Life was slotted, but not where Lif2 was slotted. Hrm3/4 has effectively the same impact that it does in this game... almost none late game.

2) Time Magic is too support-ish and not good enough to stand by itself... having the Time Mage be right next to the Sage in total strength is ridculous. Not even a magic power boost is worth such a compensation... I'll have to elaborate on this more..

3) The core problem with Time Magic is that the characters that can use them are grossly pathetic physically to benefit from them. Fast2 (or Fast) does not help the Ninja, let alone Black or Time Mage to be remotely proficient in attacking. This class completely needs a Saber/Temper magic available to even remotely rebalance these individual classes. There's something wrong with the balance when the Red Mage is stronger than the Ninja (that was never true in the original), and gets better spells overall.

4) There are certain enemies that pose a challenge, and that's awesome too. Most that annoyed me the most is the monsters that have few hits, but insane attack power and accuracy. The problem is that Invis does not have the same impact in this hack, relative to the original game. I found Fog significantly more beneficial. It's an interesting point of note, given that Invis tends to get a lot of attention in the original game. I'd say Invis needs a boost...

5) I'm convinced the Paladin is underpowered. Given what I know now, the Harm spells are nifty early on, but he then becomes useless magicwise. Another spell level cannot hurt, given that Fog3 will revitalize this character's overall potential.

6) I don't have a fucking clue where the 4th Ribbon is... AAAARRRGGGHHHHH  :bah:

7) The Red/Time magic comments make absolutely no sense late game. Just say the upper half is Red Magic, and the bottom half is Time Magic. That would make a ton more sense.

[/spoiler]

Well, there you have it. If you have any outside questions regarding balance, ask away.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 03:26:00 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Pinkpuff

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Re: (Another) FF1 Hack
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2008, 04:53:36 PM »
[spoiler]
Quote from: Deathlike2 on June 15, 2008, 03:14:58 PM
I liked the hack, but there are just various imbalances that drove me up a wall...

Well I'm glad to hear you liked it! I've been enjoying making it so far. And I'll certainly see what I can do about those imbalances...

Quote from: Deathlike2 on June 15, 2008, 03:14:58 PM
1) There are simply too many undead early, and too few late. This led to my decision to choose Holy over Lif2 for that very reason alone. I like were Life was slotted, but not where Lif2 was slotted. Hrm3/4 has effectively the same impact that it does in this game... almost none late game.

Proposed solution: I can change the monster distribution such that the frequency of undead encounters is more consistent throughout the game.

Although I must admit that I'm surprised its out-of-battle effect wasn't enough for it to compete. It couldn't even compete with Inv4?

Quote from: Deathlike2 on June 15, 2008, 03:14:58 PM
2) Time Magic is too support-ish and not good enough to stand by itself... having the Time Mage be right next to the Sage in total strength is ridculous. Not even a magic power boost is worth such a compensation... I'll have to elaborate on this more..

3) The core problem with Time Magic is that the characters that can use them are grossly pathetic physically to benefit from them. Fast2 (or Fast) does not help the Ninja, let alone Black or Time Mage to be remotely proficient in attacking. This class completely needs a Saber/Temper magic available to even remotely rebalance these individual classes. There's something wrong with the balance when the Red Mage is stronger than the Ninja (that was never true in the original), and gets better spells overall.

Ok I see what you mean now. It was never my intention for the Red Mage to be stronger than the Ninja. In terms of physical ability I was thinking the Red Mage could be better defensively and the Ninja could be better at attacking. However that's clearly not working.

Proposed solution: Get the Attack Up routine working and make Temper/Saber type Time spells if possible, and also increase the fighting ability of the time-using characters (particularly TM and Ninja).

Quote from: Deathlike2 on June 15, 2008, 03:14:58 PM
4) There are certain enemies that pose a challenge, and that's awesome too. Most that annoyed me the most is the monsters that have few hits, but insane attack power and accuracy. The problem is that Invis does not have the same impact in this hack, relative to the original game. I found Fog significantly more beneficial. It's an interesting point of note, given that Invis tends to get a lot of attention in the original game. I'd say Invis needs a boost...

Proposed solution: Increase the evade boost given by Invs spells and/or give the monsters less attack power and more hits overall.

Quote from: Deathlike2 on June 15, 2008, 03:14:58 PM
5) I'm convinced the Paladin is underpowered. Given what I know now, the Harm spells are nifty early on, but he then becomes useless magicwise. Another spell level cannot hurt, given that Fog3 will revitalize this character's overall potential.

The proposed solution to point 1 ought to fix most of what's wrong here. I still think the ability to use cure and heal spells as well as life, and the extra HP already give the Paladin quite an edge vs the Dark Knight.

Quote from: Deathlike2 on June 15, 2008, 03:14:58 PM
6) I don't have a fucking clue where the 4th Ribbon is... AAAARRRGGGHHHHH  :bah:

Unless I made a mistake somewhere there should be one in the Holy Shrine, one in the Dark Cave, one in the Time Tower and one in the Ice Cave.

Quote from: Deathlike2 on June 15, 2008, 03:14:58 PM
7) The Red/Time magic comments make absolutely no sense late game. Just say the upper half is Red Magic, and the bottom half is Time Magic. That would make a ton more sense.

Do you mean what one of the sages in Coneria says about the "first two" spells of each shop being red and the "bottom two" are time? If so then yeah, you're right I'll do that.

[/spoiler]
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Deathlike2

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Re: (Another) FF1 Hack
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2008, 05:26:55 PM »
[spoiler]
Quote from: Pinkpuff on June 15, 2008, 04:53:36 PM
Proposed solution: I can change the monster distribution such that the frequency of undead encounters is more consistent throughout the game.

Although I must admit that I'm surprised its out-of-battle effect wasn't enough for it to compete. It couldn't even compete with Inv4?

I'm usually pro-Inv on this for many different reasons. So Lif2 happened to be at the bottom of my list, but it's close to Lif2 somewhat because of Inv4's semi-ineffectiveness, Lok4, and the Fog spell set having more impact, since nothing lowers that defense (Inv and Lok are evade manipulation spells). It's also not necessarily the undead distro.. there's not enough high HP versions to justify the use (like, what "big HP" monsters are undead? I think that's limited to like what the few undead bosses?)

Quote
Ok I see what you mean now. It was never my intention for the Red Mage to be stronger than the Ninja. In terms of physical ability I was thinking the Red Mage could be better defensively and the Ninja could be better at attacking. However that's clearly not working.

Proposed solution: Get the Attack Up routine working and make Temper/Saber type Time spells if possible, and also increase the fighting ability of the time-using characters (particularly TM and Ninja).

It's a little more than that. Like (I'm) rethinking this.. the impact of high hit rate does not negate the high defense you've put on some monsters. I've not seen the final Ninja that battled Chaos seem so inept. Masamune casting self-Haste is useless. It should be Temper or Saber. It can be arguable that the staffs are far stronger than the knives, and that doesn't even sound right on the surface. It could simply be that the attack power for high hit rate weapons need increasing.. given the impact of Fog has more of an impact vs Inv/Lok. Still, Temper or Saber would at least make them self-powered to a reasonable point (if you think about it, Temper/Saber is the counter to Fog).

Quote
The proposed solution to point 1 ought to fix most of what's wrong here. I still think the ability to use cure and heal spells as well as life, and the extra HP already give the Paladin quite an edge vs the Dark Knight.

I'm still not convinced of that. The need for any healing (up to level 4) was not great late game (unless it's for cheap healing) and when you have a pair of Heal staffs, the healing adds up quicker than the healing spells. The extra HP is interesting, but I survived with a DK as the leader, so I'm not seeing that as a true improvement. Haste is what makes the original Ninja awesome (subsequently your DK). Nothing makes the current Paladin great. If the Paladin's spell point growth is on par with the DK, it's spells become rather emergencyish (as in, if worse comes to worse, as it has no practical impact normally) and eventually becomes "meh" late game.

Quote
Unless I made a mistake somewhere there should be one in the Holy Shrine, one in the Dark Cave, one in the Time Tower and one in the Ice Cave.

I'm trying to recall which area didn't have it. The only location I'm sure I have a Ribbon was the Dark Cave.  I'll double check though.
Ok.. there's only a row of chests in the Holy Shrine that I can recall... although IIRC, some of the chests were empty... (bah to treasure chest pointer sharing).
I'm pretty sure I got every chest in the Time Tower...
The Ice Cave.... it may have been in one of the trio of chests, or not there at all, I cannot recall.

The order of which I did the trials... Ice Cave (for the Floater)..
Holy Shrine (was hoping for a Rat Tail  :wink:)
Time Tower
Dark Cave

If you want, I can try to provide the save file and see if you can determine which Ribbon chest that's not opened.
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 05:51:18 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Deathlike2

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Re: (Another) FF1 Hack
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2008, 06:14:15 PM »
Here's my current projections, based on my gameplay...

[spoiler]
Strongest Physical Character minus the Monk (factoring both attack and defense and HP, to an extent), on a scale of 1 to 10:
? - Viking (Axes having the most attack power have the most impact, but I don't know what is the hit rate on these to be completely confident)
8 - Knight (the weapon options seem more limited here, compared to the Viking, mostly because the Axe is not involved)
7 - Paladin (Axes giving it an edge over the Knight..., although the Holy Sword will probably give a nice damage bonus)
7 - Dark Knight (the evil sword has fewer options, but seems to be compensated with a higher attack power/hit rate since the Dark elemental has an impact under one scenario, all other scenarios look pathetic though)
6 - Thief (although, I really wonder what the actual compensation is for this character, the Sword is a solid option here)
6 - Red Mage (it shouldn't be here, but it is, since the Swords for the character is solid)
4 - Ninja (it is unfortunately underpowered, since Katanas and Knives focus primarily on hit rate, not Attack Power.. the Katanas need an attack boost to overtake the Red Mage).
3 - White Mage (hammers have a greater impact than knives, so thar she goes!)
? - Black Mage/Time Mage/Sage (they are lumped in the same group, since knives provide zilch for impact, and staffs have a better chance of standing out, believe that or not)
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
Overall Package (considering all factors, including magic growth and magic availability, when applicable) from a scale of 1 to 10:
9 - Dark Knight - Haste is all you need to overpower this character with his weapon options
8 - Knight - has the best overall weapon+armor options
? - Viking - I'm not sure how Axes compare overall
7 - Paladin - medicore magic, even with the slightly better weapon options
7 - Red Mage - good balance of strength and magic, but doesn't excel at either
6 - Thief - I'm unsure of what other benefits are given for having no magic here
5 - White Mage - you need one because it's the cool thing to do, it is a competant fighter given the options
5 - Ninja - yes, even the White Mage surpasses you on a consistant basis physically, and your magic set is "good enough" to keep you around, but currently disappointing
4 - Sage - I wish Tellah was this good, though attack power would be hindered, it doesn't matter as much since you are given full range of the most powerful of magic (I like my characters to be semi-compentant fighters)
3 - Black Mage - bad weapon options coupled with no strength boosting makes this guy kinda gutless for some stretches
2 - Time Mage - like the Black Mage, but having worse magic options
[/spoiler]

Also, you have some naming inconsistancy in the character selection screen... you see "Wiz" instead of Mage for all the spellcasters.

Minor suggestions:
[spoiler]
Don't call it "Venom Axe" if it doesn't have Bio in it.  :tongue: Consider a Rune Axe that kills mages? Try a different common FF series axe name...
Don't call it "Defender" if it doesn't provide a defensive benefit... names are semi-important because it implies certain characteristics of the weapon more often than not...
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 06:43:11 PM by Deathlike2 »
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