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Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2011, 05:52:51 PM »
I didn't really notice it with FF1 and 2 for PSP. I first noticed the RPG Maker style with The After Years when it came out for the Wii, it's not just the graphics in that one, it's everything about the game that looks like it was made in RPG Maker VX. I find the same to be true with FF4 for PSP, but FF1 and 2 still don't look nearly as RPG Maker-like.

Yeah, The After Years didn't impress me very much graphically or map design wise. The characters were very obvious FF6 (with some RS-looking stuff too) edits, Cecil is clearly Edgar for example. My little edits I did for the PB Halloween banner turned out better, IMO, and I spent like five minutes tops on each character, and was intentionally trying to make them still resemble the FF6 character wearing the costume.

So yeah, it did look like your typical "rip a bunch of resources and make a "new" game RM2K/3 game.

The new maps were terrible compared to the originals, with a handful of exceptions. The new resources clashed against the old. I'm guessing they had a shoestring budget to make the game with, which explains all of the recycling.

And scenario wise, the amount of stuff outright copied from the original game was embarrassing. There were two copies of the original Octomammoth battle. I mean, seriously, they couldn't come up with something more original? I can see wanting to tap into the nostalgia factor a bit and having some parallels with the original game in places, but it just felt overdone and lazy most of the time.

(I still enjoyed the gameplay a lot. In the end it is FF4, best gameplay in the series, with a lot of new abilities and party combinations.)

JCE3000GT

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2011, 08:57:25 PM »
Am I alone in that I don't think any of it is even remotely like RPGMaker.  *shrugs*

Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2011, 04:47:15 AM »
My post above was referring to the original versions of the game and not the PSP version, but the stuff about the maps will still apply there. The original version was a cobbled together mess of FF4 GBA resources, strange edits of character sprites from other Square SNES RPGs, straight rips of some sprites from other games, and new stuff that clashed against it all. So in that sense it's a lot like an RPG Maker game.

The characters and map tiles in the PSP version have some resemblance to the stock resources that come with the newer RPG Makers, but not as much as the ones in FF1 and FF2 did.

Zozma

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2011, 05:43:11 PM »
Thats exactly what i thought about it too. and i can't stand it when things dont match in a game. it really makes it look cheaply done
eh, what do I care...

vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2011, 07:51:52 AM »
What I can't stand about these ports is that they're just upgrades of the second worst port of the game, and that was an upgrade of the absolute worst port of the game. Despite that, everyone's lauding it like it's the second coming of Jesus and saying it's the best thing on the PSP. What the hell? I could see it if this was based off the cellphone version and utilized the DS translation, but it doesn't.

Instead, they just Ctrl+H'd "summon beast" to "eidolon" and "The Land of the Summoned Monsters" to "The Feymarch." Then, they took that "new and improved" GBA script and dumped it into a bland, RPGMaker shell.

As it stands, I plan on buying FFIV DS and maybe pirating this for that crappy Interlude and TAY.
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Paladin

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2011, 11:46:43 AM »
I'd like to see what you all are talking about here with the respect to whatever RPG maker is in reference to FF4.

Is it a game or some kind of software? I recall having an old PlayStation game about 10 years ago called "RPG Maker" but I didn't find it at all interesting and gave it away to my cousin. I guess some successive generation of this thing is around?.

Now to me, looking at the graphics in the PSP game (absent the above bias) they are all very evidently derived from the original SFC and upgraded WSC graphics. And I'm pretty darned familiar with how this game looks across all it's versions as I've generally played it once or twice a year for the last 20 years in various different versions. The first thing I see is that the tiles obviously have a much higher pixel depth than any of the previous 2D versions because of the available hardware. Instead of 8x8 tiles they appear to be 16x16 (or things are made up of 8 tiles rather than four) so the graphic designers have been able to add more detail. Really it appears that someone sat down and took all the old tiles and bumped up the pixel resolution. In fact it appears that a team of graphics artists had to rebuild the entire tile set for the PSP game. Besides this if you play through parts of the DS game and then go back to the GBA or WSC game, it looks like they blended the two. They seem to have added some of the detail from the DS game's location maps to the 2D maps in the PSP game. However they've kept the location maps very faithful to the original SFC game. So honestly, If this RPG maker software you're all talking about has the exact FF4 tile sets in it, or ones so close it's stupid, I'd like to see that.

I also happen to like the new styles on the sprites and the in-battle magic effects. All the character sprites seem to be following the design sensibilities used for the DS game, which have been the most faithful to Amano's original artwork. They all also have a higher pixel depth so they have more detail. Something I think the map sprites in particular sorely needed...those old 4-tile 16x16 pixel sprites in the previous 2D versions were always too basic for my taste. Furthermore the spell animations are pretty spiffy IMO as well. I like the flame effects on the fire spells especially.  Monsters have also all been upgraded in look with either completely new artwork in a few cases or just higher pixel depth detail. It's nice to see something new and different in such an old game.

Besides that in my opinion it just generally looks pretty good, especially compared to the old SFC game and even the GBA game. I guess if this is what stuff looks like in whatever RPG Maker is, so what? If that's not enough to warrant buying it again nobody is advocating that, at least not me. I mean this game has so many damned versions its stupid... It's easy to pick the one you like.

Having said all this I don't think the PSP version of FF4 is the end all beat all. Importantly I think this version is far to easy; the difficulty and balance in the DS version was much better. It's been some time since I did a full playthrough of the GBA version but that also seemed to be a somewhat harder game relative to this PSP version, but not as difficult as the SFC original or the DS game. I also seem to be one of the few people that liked the "flowery" translation used in the DS game. That seemed to disappear. However I know a lot of fans that did not like the DS script at all and are very happy it's now "gone".

What I like best about this PSP version and not any less about the GBA version are that you can party swap at the end of the game. While the bonus dungeons are nifty, really it's mostly that the party swap for me is a huge feature. I like it a lot, and it was one of my favorite features of FF6. Actually I wished there was more of it. In fact I think the original SFC game probably intended to use it but it didn't get done. I missed it in the DS game and I also didn't particularly care for the augment system in that game as a workaround.

A hardware related thing I like about the PSP version is that I can output the audio and, importantly, video to something else, like say my 55" plasma and my home theater surround system. I can also do this with the GBA game using the GBA player on the GameCube. Of course this is also an option for the SFC game, especially if you emulate. However having to only use the damn handheld to play the DS game pisses me off. I even got one of those huge DSi-XL things and, while much better, I still prefer to hang back on the couch with a controller rather than be hunched over a handheld. Why Nintendo can't figure out how to dump the video out of the top screen and allow the controls and bottom screen of the DS to act as a tethered controller for a larger monitor makes no sense. In my opinion Sony got that feature way right on the PSP.

Another hardware positive  is the Audio on the PSP is great; both the original SFC score and the "arranged" score are clean and high quality. The GBA and DS sound output is atrocious and grating. I mean I can barely stand to listen to either, I recall turning both way down to just audible enough to know what was going on.  This is another win for me as I continually went back to the SFC versions (generally via emulation) for play through simply because they sounded better.

Anyway the DS game is a much different version all around than any 2D version of FF4, so the DS game stands alone as a version IMO. I'm comparing this PSP game to the other similar 2D games, which are all more or less the same essential game -- difficulty, graphics, and bonus features notwithstanding.

Like I said earlier there's no reason to really go back to the GBA game from this version, the graphics are improved IMO and the audio is 1000x better sounding. However I can see where you could pass this up if you already have the GBA game and don't care about The After Years, especially if you'd have to drop the cash on the PSP. Furthermore if you really liked the DS game over other previous versions I can see this one as a step back, in which case I wouldn't recommend it at all unless you have a PSP and you do want the After Years stuff.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 12:40:16 PM by Paladin »

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2011, 12:04:16 PM »
RPGMaker is a series of packages for the PC that let people make their own jRPGs. The SNES, PS1 and PS2 versions are made by the same company. The art style of FF4:TAY and FF4 PSP are very similar to the type of graphics you see in RPGMaker games. Strikingly similar, in fact. If you're not a fan of that, or if you've seen it far too many times, its appearance in FF4:TAY and FF4 PSP can be annoying.

Myself, I do not care.

Paladin

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2011, 12:10:25 PM »
RPGMaker is a series of packages for the PC that let people make their own jRPGs. The SNES, PS1 and PS2 versions are made by the same company. The art style of FF4:TAY and FF4 PSP are very similar to the type of graphics you see in RPGMaker games. Strikingly similar, in fact. If you're not a fan of that, or if you've seen it far too many times, its appearance in FF4:TAY and FF4 PSP can be annoying.

Myself, I do not care.

Ah... Thanks for the explanation.

I suppose that might be an issue to some...but it sounds like it's more a style than an actual copied artwork thing. That was what I was confused on.

However I like you could care less. I think in this context it (FF4) looks good to me. The style apparently works because the game functionally looks not really much different than the original 2D versions besides being in a 16:9 format and having a higher pixel depth for more detail per tile.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 12:16:41 PM by Paladin »

Leviathan Mist

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2011, 11:18:33 PM »
It's not just the graphics, it's also the way events occur, including sound effects and sound effect volume, and it's apparent where event tiles are placed, and the actions that happen on event tiles can easily be recreated in RPG Maker without even having to create original code for it. A menu script could be made for RPG Maker VX to look 100% identical to that in FF4 PSP. In fact, pretty much anything could be recreated with perfect accuracy in RPG Maker VX, with only limited scripting knowledge. That's what disappoints me about it, really.

Actually, that sounds like an interesting project, I might look into recreating FF4 PSP in RPG Maker VX.

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2011, 01:30:47 AM »
I will say that when I saw the battle screens for TAY Wii, I was very put off by the RPG Makerish menus... That bugs me more than the characters, to be honest with you folks.

I don't recall how FF4 PSP looks exactly, so I can't comment on that.

Dragonsbrethren

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2011, 02:32:19 AM »
It's not just the graphics, it's also the way events occur, including sound effects and sound effect volume, and it's apparent where event tiles are placed, and the actions that happen on event tiles can easily be recreated in RPG Maker without even having to create original code for it. A menu script could be made for RPG Maker VX to look 100% identical to that in FF4 PSP. In fact, pretty much anything could be recreated with perfect accuracy in RPG Maker VX, with only limited scripting knowledge. That's what disappoints me about it, really.

Actually, that sounds like an interesting project, I might look into recreating FF4 PSP in RPG Maker VX.

To be fair, the same could be said about everything in the original.

Paladin

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2011, 09:26:53 AM »
It's not just the graphics, it's also the way events occur, including sound effects and sound effect volume, and it's apparent where event tiles are placed, and the actions that happen on event tiles can easily be recreated in RPG Maker without even having to create original code for it. A menu script could be made for RPG Maker VX to look 100% identical to that in FF4 PSP. In fact, pretty much anything could be recreated with perfect accuracy in RPG Maker VX, with only limited scripting knowledge. That's what disappoints me about it, really.

Actually, that sounds like an interesting project, I might look into recreating FF4 PSP in RPG Maker VX.

To be fair, the same could be said about everything in the original.

Right, that's what I was thinking too in regard to some of those particular comments. Not that they're not valid subjective criticism, it's just that the game is 20 years old and was really pretty basic in it's original format. I'm sure the RPG Maker software is probably even more advanced in it's capabilities than the Square guys grinding away at this thing in ASM on the original SFC hardware. Since they've chosen to stay so devoted to the original game it's not surprising it seems basic even with all the graphical lipstick. Even when you compare it to the DS game.

However, and I may be taking Leviathan Mist's comments beyond the context intended, but it seems like the point might be why is the 2D game STILL so basic. Besides some lipstick where's the draw? It would have been nice if they had really advanced the thing in some respect. Instead of making the events damn near identical to the original game. They could have embellished them a lot more just to add detail. It's like even though they have all the file space in the world to work with they're still stuck on shortcuts made 20 years ago because of cart size limitations and just plain deadline limitations to get this thing out way back in '91, which are sorely present in the old game and seem stupid to keep replicating here in the PSP version (I even complained about this in the GBA version 6 years ago). Now they did add a few CGI cut scenes this time but they almost seem like an afterthought. I mean they show the Enterprise flying off to the Tower of Zot (very quickly) but still no blasted view of the Tower itself. It's things like that Squeenix, I just don't get it. Why not and some detail to the existing events to spice it up. Oh yeah, that would cost money I guess. But hey they found budget for TAY so I really don't know what the logic is over there. Other than perhaps appeasing fans? But with so many damned versions available any real fan of this game can, as I mentioned earlier, pick their favorite and roll with it.
 :bah: whatever...

And this version is way to easy, stupid easy in fact. If you spend even a little time leveling up the characters they turn into gods. If I could dump this thing and hack on it, the first thing I'd do is rebalance EVERYTHING. Monsters, levels, etc...
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 09:35:41 AM by Paladin »

Leviathan Mist

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2011, 12:37:59 PM »
True, you could make it look just like the original, but it wouldn't have the same feel to it because the original was coded in a primitive format with older assembly code. Remember the FF6 SDK project for RPG Maker XP? That was all made to look very close to FF6, right down to the graphics. However, there were noticeable differences caused by the RPG Maker format which could not be addressed, mostly lag issues, but also things like text position in the menus. To make an RPG Maker game not FEEL like an RPG maker game would take insane amounts of work, and honestly, I think would be impossible. However, if the game already feels like an RPG maker game, then it'd be easier to replicate.

Deathlike2

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2012, 11:59:57 PM »
What I like best about this PSP version and not any less about the GBA version are that you can party swap at the end of the game. While the bonus dungeons are nifty, really it's mostly that the party swap for me is a huge feature. I like it a lot, and it was one of my favorite features of FF6. Actually I wished there was more of it. In fact I think the original SFC game probably intended to use it but it didn't get done. I missed it in the DS game and I also didn't particularly care for the augment system in that game as a workaround.

Well, if the original FF4 had the final party options, you would still have to figure out what Cid's best weapon would be (Ogre Axe+Dragon Shield, or Poison/Rune Axe or Gaia's Hammer) and figure if a naked Bard would be that much different than one with armor.

What would've been nice in this port... a FF6-type multi-party dungeon crawl extra. It would make that Proto-Babil bonus feel reasonable.
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Paladin

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Complete Collection
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2012, 06:41:18 PM »
What would've been nice in this port... a FF6-type multi-party dungeon crawl extra. It would make that Proto-Babil bonus feel reasonable.

Indeed something novel like that would have been nice to change things up a bit more.

I mean thinking back on it I'm leaning toward the assumption that the only real reason they dumped er...ported the GBA game to PSP was simply to release it again on it's 20th anniversary year. And I guess you can say to get TAY out to those who didn't follow it/have access to it on the DoCoMo phone (and/or the Wii thing that downloads and plays games I think TAY was available there?).

Another reason it probably didn't stray to much was because the DS game did and was met with a generally lukewarm if not downright cold response from many fans (the anecdotal reports I heard coming from longtime Japanese FF4 fans were that many of them turned their nose up at what they considered negative revisionisim of the game on the part of one Mr. Tokita).

Anyway I think that the PSP version will probably be the last release for a while...