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Author Topic: The Drawing Board  (Read 17973 times)

LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2014, 12:12:56 PM »
I get what you mean, but someone who commits a crime is a criminal because that's the definition of the word 'criminal'. There's nothing in the definition of 'Dark Knight' or 'Paladin' that specifies anything about the character's behaviour. I mean, I know they don't have strict definitions or anything, but they're primarily game mechanic constructs more so than anything else; it's more a specification of what your skills and abilities are than what you do with them.

That said, I would certainly agree that certain skill sets are more appropriate/useful to certain kinds of tasks than others. If you're looking to protect people (especially specific people) you probably would want a Paladin. If you're looking to wipe out large armies of small mooks, then, unless they're undead, you probably would prefer a Dark Knight. So it's easy to see how someone might equate "protecting = good" and "killing = bad". But if the person/people you're protecting is/are villains, or the people you're wiping out are an evil invading army, then it's not so clear cut as that.

Very true! "A man kills another man in battle: they call that 'heroic' - but kill another man in the heat of passion: they call that 'murder'"

Just consider the trip to Ordeals vs. the trip back. On the way to the mountain, the DK just destroys everything. For me the twins often don't even get turns. You either fight big fat ravens/zuus which die instantly to Deathbringer, or you fight a bunch of little imps and porcupines which all die in one shot to dark wave. Once you get to the mountan though, then the DK is probably your least useful contributor. He can attack certain monsters, but for reduced damage, and in those zombie battles he's basically using bomb fragments or potions/ethers or parrying. Contrast that with the way back to town. Paladin just wrecks everything on the mountain, but when you get to the overworld, he can take out the little guys but very slowly one-by-one, so he's probably relying on the mages to take them out with their group attacks, and against the giant birds he just has to hack away at them for very modest amounts of damage, again probably relying on the mages for support.

Wow. I remember having most of those thoughts individually over the various playthroughs but never actually connecting them all together into such a poignent demonstration. You can bet that next time I play that will be the thought!  :wink:

... a bit of a nagging question I had: if Theodor became Golbez under Zemus' influence: where has he been the whole time of Cecil's maturity? Even taking Theodor as young (10-11?) That still leaves him ~15 years of 16+ adulthood that's a total ???? It also seems like Baron didn't turn that slowly just the guys showed up - killed the king, took over, and as quickly as possible started going for the Crystals - it seems a bit off to me

Agreed... it seems like the king being replaced is something that happened very close to the beginning of FF4; it does seem like it might be too short a timeframe to instill a predjudice in people. Definitely he's been training Dark Knights long before that. It could simply be an extrapolation of the kinds of things Dark Knights are good at and what goals those things are useful for accomplishing, e.g. killing things (particularly people, as in some FF games they have many human opponents as being weak to Dark/Poison), whereas Paladins are good at protecting people and destroying evil spirits and other such undead abominations.

Quite so. That's also what I keep in the back of my mind about Baron having the strongest military - they trained Dark Knights and supported them with Dragoons - even before the Red Wings that choice in focus seems quite a strong tactical stance to take - certainly not an army I'd want to come up against.

I preface this by saying my own immediate follow-up thought was "I probably wouldn't do it - but hmm..." What if instead of White/Black it's a little more like FF6 (which is funny to type - I actually don't like that aspect of the game at all) - But how I mean it is any Mage class can learn any spell - but obviously Palom's Black magic would work far more effectively than White. To have enough room we'd probably have to split magic into Basic/Advanced in place of White/Black.

Just a weird thought that came by - sort of an extension on a complaint I always had with weapons. Gandalf can use a sword - and so can anyone; they just might suck at it. Just like the above idea, not something I'd probably work towards here, but still want it out there.

Speaking only for myself, such a system wouldn't be my cup of tea. In fact it's one of the things that bothers me about a lot of the later Final Fantasy games (basically 6+, with a couple of exceptions). The characters are very "whitewashed"... that is to say, mostly the same with a few differences rather than mostly different with a few similarities. FF6 isn't quite so bad with it as some of the others, and it only really surfaces in the mid to late part of the game, but it always left a sort of bad taste in my mouth. Especially the ones where, literally, every character has access to every ability with, few exceptions like maybe limit breaks or something. I always preferred games where a character has a specific set of specialized skills which he or she does really well, and sucks at everything else. But that's why you have a party; each character's specialties make up for the shortcomings of the others (in a balanced party that is, though a specialized one can be fun as well, forcing you to find more creative ways around their weaknesses).

It didn't hit me in FF6 until the 2nd playthrough - I was too excited with the first: it was the first Final Fantasy that I was playing solo - my brother had done the others before/in front of me so I knew a lot going in when I eventually went solo. It was then I stopped with the thought "How come Sabin knows more magic than Terra...?"

FF4 is my favorite far and away and a good part of that offset is the core story ("warts and all") built around characters that are actually defined. The freedom to shape is nice, but you can't write so much around that. I had someone (who didn't play RPGs) try to argue that it doesn't matter what they do, because people are who they are. This is true, if they are people that you know and you have a vested emotional interest in them - but you'll never get to that point if everyone is "whitewashed" out (good word for that!) The two examples I offered them were the A-Team: if everyone had interchangeable jobs and skills - who would care? - and the Fantastic 4...what a disaster it would be were they all able to access the same pool of powers... :sad: - Though at the same time I'll always have in the back of my head the scenario of "help her; 'she's hurt' - 'oh, sorry: I only know boom-boom magic' - 'is there nothing you can do?' - 'no, that was a different major...'"
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LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2014, 12:33:21 PM »
On that note, have you guys (n gals) read the rise and fall of final fantasy? Definitely essential reading for anyone on this forum... except pat also neglects the awesomeness of ffix...
 :bah:

It's ok - I hear you. Up front I confess to not having played it - but that wasn't personal - I never even played 7 until over 10 years after the fact - didn't play 8 either, phew! I do get being in a minority when it comes to preference - I still like the 1st Terminator over the 2nd movie. Two other examples would be that I enjoy the Friday the 13th NES game (notice closing post quote) - and in a sea of endless possibilities: I choose as a hobby insanity-inducing mathematics...though discussing topics on here is working its way up that list!

Just remember this - there will always be one other person on your side about FFIX:

"Hironobu Sakaguchi has stated that Final Fantasy IX is the 'closest to (his) ideal view of what Final Fantasy should be'"
   -  http://rpgsquare.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/why-square-enix-should-look-to-final-fantasy-ix/

I can't even use the creator himself in my Terminator arguments: Man vs Machine is a more compelling story than Machine vs Better "Machine" - but James Cameron himself defends the sequel - it's what a Terminator movie should be - certainly the best movie that came out between The Abyss and Titanic...hmm...

Also, found these articles looking for that quote - pretty interesting stuff - I'm looking through the link you posted, likewise worth a read.


http://www.mistwalkercorp.com/en/column/pg187.html

http://bmancilla.com/tag/hironobu-sakaguchi/
"Now I know; and knowing makes it even more confusing..."

LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2014, 12:58:15 PM »
As someone who grew up with FF but not so much LoTR, I always thought it was kind of cheap that Gandalf was such a skilled swordsman. I would've liked to see him cast meteo to defeat the balrog. Or maybe someone should have just told him that balrog is defenseless against Chun Li's yayaya kick.

I forgot to respond to that - and it's too good to miss! No-one can stand-up to The Lightning Kick: particularly in the Animated Movie (worth a watch - I like it) - but that bridge made me laugh so I wanted to make sure I acknowledged that!

- As for Gandalf - oh Hell yes - he should suck, and suck hard when it comes of swordsmanship. It's not easy; you need a lot of practice and to keep on it - but at the same time it does perplex me that the mechanics in place are Mage can't pick up a sword. I practiced for a long time to get good with a sword* - but I never got to test this theory since I have yet to learn magic and my level-up table seems to indicate that I never will.

BTW...that part isn't actually a joke...  :blush:
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chillyfeez

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2014, 01:05:01 PM »
Reading those essays will make you want to catch up on the FFs you've missed. FFVIII is my least favorite of the series (which ends at X in my opinion), but even that has its merits... the story is the most warped and intriguingly bizarre out of any - you will laugh out loud if and when you read the imagined genesis or the game in "Rise and Fall"... and Rinoa is by far the cutest out of all the FF girls.
FFIX is one of my favorites because it is purposely and pointedly a throwback to the feel of the earlier games (even if the big plot twist is stolen directly from... well I won't ruin the surprise, but those who've played it know what I was about to say), but with all the hardware advantages of the psx.

chillyfeez

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2014, 01:41:40 PM »
... maybe that's why you can't learn magic...

LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2014, 06:56:00 PM »
... maybe that's why you can't learn magic...

Well shoot! Though maybe if I were not so good I could gain some magic - I could be a Red Mage...maybe...

Reading those essays will make you want to catch up on the FFs you've missed. FFVIII is my least favorite of the series (which ends at X in my opinion), but even that has its merits... the story is the most warped and intriguingly bizarre out of any - you will laugh out loud if and when you read the imagined genesis or the game in "Rise and Fall"... and Rinoa is by far the cutest out of all the FF girls.
FFIX is one of my favorites because it is purposely and pointedly a throwback to the feel of the earlier games (even if the big plot twist is stolen directly from... well I won't ruin the surprise, but those who've played it know what I was about to say), but with all the hardware advantages of the psx.

There really is no reason for me not to check IX out - it's been recommended to me for years considering how much I liked the 1st game. Keep that picture of Steiner up; I feel like I'll eventually submit - it feels like he's looking at me like I owe him something - kinda like "I Want You" - only more "I Want You - and I Can Kill You..."

 
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Pinkpuff

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2014, 04:19:49 AM »
It's been a long time since I played 9 but I did enjoy it, and it is definitely one of the "few exceptions" I was thinking of when I qualified that comment.
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chillyfeez

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #67 on: January 19, 2014, 10:00:28 AM »
Yeah, you did say that, didn't you?
 :isuck:

xcmn

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #68 on: January 19, 2014, 03:17:52 PM »
If we're on a 9 trip I must say it has great music!

Grimoire LD

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #69 on: January 19, 2014, 03:26:45 PM »
The only thing holding IX back, in my opinion was its extremely slow battle system, and that wasn't Square's fault, but the hardware. Everything seemed way too... singular... in some respects, there was very little feel of an actual "battle" going on. This wasn't that much of an issue in VII and VIII but in IX it was clear to me they were pushing the limits of the PSX's capabilities.

I hope if they ever remake FFIX they'll make its combat look as smooth as FFIV DS's own.

chillyfeez

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2014, 05:57:41 PM »
Hmm... I probably only played it through once on the psx. All subsequent playthroughs have been on ps2 or 3... would that make a difference? Because I don't really remember ever thinking it was too slow.

Grimoire LD

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2014, 01:07:50 AM »
I don't mean in just a slow-down, just that the action seemed a bit stilted in a way that wasn't so felt in FFVII and VIII. Though maybe it's just me? No idea...

So I came across this Awesome video of a couple that sings the entire plot of FFII (the real FFII) and it really dawned on me how good FFII's story really was. If only its gameplay wasn't such a mess...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1OQII2aCYI

LordGarmonde

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2014, 10:29:23 PM »
"Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days. Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic."  - Ouch!

I finally finished my TNL calculations; here's what I 've got:
   
   TNL(Lv+1) = TNL(Lv) + D + Floor[P x Q x R]
   P = (Lv - F),   Q = (Lv + F + 3) &  TNL(0) := 0

So it may look bad (better than before though) but it is simple when written out. All that is needed to calculate TNL is a set of 3 parameters per character:

   F = Characters 1st Level (As defined in the ROM)
   D = The 1st Difference (Also from ROM data,  D = 2nd ROM TNL - 1st ROM TNL)
   R = Readjustment Parameter (As determined via error minimization)

The parameters for Dk. Cecil are here as an example:

    F=10, D=255, R = 1.853   (Note:  1.379 < R < 1.861 for all characters)

   
As it is programmed the TNL value for the current level is read at level-up (or join) and carried around in the RAM. My formula calculates the appropriate difference which then is added to the current TNL value to yield the next one.

This is where my expertiese ends. I've made an Excel (2003) sheet that has a table of all my calculated values,  the parameters, the original values from the ROM, the error, and a calculator with a character/level select. On the calculator sheet I've written out my poor (and incorrect) attempt to "code" the formula in ASM. I included how I'd write it in C if I had to break them out into the same steps. Unfortunately it is just a little too large to post - so instead attached is a .CSV with just data. I'll update this post with a dropbox link (or similar) later on.

Have a look; let me know what you think. One problem I can imagine would be using 3-place decimals - but you need all of them for accurate calculations. (a good amount of the values are less than 50 off from the actual) The results of the example calculation shown in Excel are:

   Dk. Cecil @ Lv 44 & Gains Lv up to 45
   ROM / Calc. TNL   60555 / 60543

If this can be implemented it will allow a character at any level (even though I use the original 1st level as a seed value) - but with this I can imagine throwing out shadow characters all together. (eventually - need to deal with equipment, stats, etc.) The only thing needed would be code to read Cecil's current level and adjust the incoming member based on that.

It still came out long...but math is tricky. Now that my life does not consist of extended illness and constant programming/data analysis I plan to be back around more so I can do it for fun instead of as a full time job. Questions/comments as always are encouraged.

 :edit:  Excel Calculator:   http://filehost.flamingfiles.com/53d321dc2da2e   -   Let me know if this works for everyone, otherwise let me know and I'll post it elsewhere  :finger:
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 02:14:00 AM by LordGarmonde »
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chillyfeez

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2014, 11:26:54 PM »
Hey, LordGarmonde, long time. I was just wondering the other day to myself if we'd ever hear from you again.

So this is cool stuff, but the three decimal places might be problematic. In the Monsters Level Up as You Do hack I developed, I did in essence employ decimals, but the way I did it was by multiplying everything by 255 (shifting a single byte to the left by one full byte in 16-bit mode), then dividing back by 255 when the calculations were done. This worked fine for numbers that are only one byte long, but TNL values are often at least two bytes and sometimes three. I'm not sure I'd be capable of implementing the formula.

Grimoire LD

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Re: The Drawing Board
« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2014, 11:58:02 PM »
Indeed, it is great to see you back! You were the fourth member of our little squad and your posts were always interesting or encouraging. Again, this post is no exception. This is quite fantastic work but Chillyfeez does present a good reasoning on why the decimals might be a bit much... but if it can work without decimals than there's a possibility it can be used, if we can get out of the dependency of the 5 Slot Shadows and the terrible Exp. tables than the game opens up in a variety of ways!