øAslickproductions.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=lsevobcrj107ort5obu75dq6j7&topic=2230.15e:/My Web Sites/Slick Productions - FFIV Message Board/slickproductions.org/forum/indexeef6.htmldelayedslickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=2230.180e:/My Web Sites/Slick Productions - FFIV Message Board/slickproductions.org/forum/indexeef6.html.zx¼2h^ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÈ0PdË~OKtext/htmlISO-8859-1gzip@øÕË~ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÑHWed, 11 Mar 2020 00:53:41 GMT0ó°° ®0®P®€§²ð®¼2h^ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿu5Ë~ C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix (for SNES NA 1.0 version)

Author Topic: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix (for SNES NA 1.0 version)  (Read 15932 times)

C. V. Reynolds

  • Tunnel Armor
  • *
  • Posts: 153
  • RATED TEM OUTTA TEM.
    • View Profile
    • cvreynolds.net
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2016, 10:07:00 PM »
Hoi. :3

Added: Chain of Command (Leet Sketcher)

Haven't gotten around to the Zozo thing yet. Been busy with a lot of writing lately.

(And it takes motivation to dig through my script in the buggy old FF3usME. Not that I'm not grateful for it, though)
I'm the former Hollywood Narrator from GameFAQs.

I'm a published novelist. My novels "Universe Eleven Series - Blue Ruin" Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3 are for sale on Amazon (check my website) in print and ebook formats.

C. V. Reynolds

  • Tunnel Armor
  • *
  • Posts: 153
  • RATED TEM OUTTA TEM.
    • View Profile
    • cvreynolds.net
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2016, 12:11:39 AM »
Hoi. :3

Update is just to fix a single-byte error related to Save Point Switch. Otherwise is the same. You'll almost definitely need this update, though.
I'm the former Hollywood Narrator from GameFAQs.

I'm a published novelist. My novels "Universe Eleven Series - Blue Ruin" Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3 are for sale on Amazon (check my website) in print and ebook formats.

13375K31C43R

  • Ultros
  • *
  • Posts: 675
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Leet Sketcher's Final Fantasy III Patches
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2016, 02:38:52 AM »
Haven't gotten around to the Zozo thing yet. Been busy with a lot of writing lately.

(And it takes motivation to dig through my script in the buggy old FF3usME. Not that I'm not grateful for it, though)

I wish I could write a super-quick patch for you, but if you're using FF3usME then I have no idea where the patch would have to point to. I can tell you that the index of that line is somewhere between 1000 and 1100. I can't remember more precisely than that where it is, though.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." -Gildor from The Lord of the Rings

assassin

  • Bane of Retards
  • *
  • Posts: 1,033
  • space bears are not gentle!
    • View Profile
    • My Barren Webpage
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2016, 02:04:04 PM »
who's to say that the game didn't want to narrow it down to two choices, and leave the final coin flip up to the player?

13375K31C43R

  • Ultros
  • *
  • Posts: 675
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Leet Sketcher's Final Fantasy III Patches
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2016, 02:16:21 PM »
who's to say that the game didn't want to narrow it down to two choices, and leave the final coin flip up to the player?

Well, what's the point of that? Having a puzzle's final solution come down to simply guesswork is bad design. And what's the point of one guy telling you something another guy also tells you?
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." -Gildor from The Lord of the Rings

assassin

  • Bane of Retards
  • *
  • Posts: 1,033
  • space bears are not gentle!
    • View Profile
    • My Barren Webpage
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2016, 04:11:53 PM »
having a majority or all of the puzzle be guesswork would be bad design, but making you try a whopping TWO options is hardly unfair or tedious.  as for the redundancy, it's not like the Zozoians have some Central Committee to coordinate lies; they seem a rather disorganized bunch, what with the pacing around in the rain, and passing out on the ground.

13375K31C43R

  • Ultros
  • *
  • Posts: 675
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Leet Sketcher's Final Fantasy III Patches
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2016, 02:31:19 AM »
That's not really my point. My point is it's a waste of resources. If the only clue one of the liars gives you is something you could infer from a clue someone else gave you, then why insert the former clue at all? Also, yes, two options IS still a problem because it's a puzzle. Puzzles are always supposed to be solvable without having to guess AT ALL.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." -Gildor from The Lord of the Rings

assassin

  • Bane of Retards
  • *
  • Posts: 1,033
  • space bears are not gentle!
    • View Profile
    • My Barren Webpage
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2016, 03:14:57 AM »
Quote
If the only clue one of the liars gives you is something you could infer from a clue someone else gave you, then why insert the former clue at all?

it makes the liars slightly more authentic.  they behave as individuals, rather than as some coordinated organism that "knows" not to repeat itself.

Quote
Also, yes, two options IS still a problem because it's a puzzle. Puzzles are always supposed to be solvable without having to guess AT ALL.

what stone tablet was this so-called rule etched onto? :P

if guessing were forbidden, the game should just destroy the path (or permanently lock you out of it) after one wrong answer, since there's no reason whatsoever to get it incorrect on the first try.

now, i think it's possible the dialogue was flubbed, but just haven't seen near ironclad proof here.  the townspeople can aid in the process of elimination, without wrapping up everything neatly in a bow.

out of curiosity, what does FF6j say?

13375K31C43R

  • Ultros
  • *
  • Posts: 675
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Leet Sketcher's Final Fantasy III Patches
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2016, 12:29:48 PM »
it makes the liars slightly more authentic.  they behave as individuals, rather than as some coordinated organism that "knows" not to repeat itself.

What are you talking about? If one guy says it, you already know it's a lie. So there's nothing to add by having another guy say the same thing. And who cares about them not seeming like an organized system when they clearly already are? Those guys walking through that one hallway in a conga line each say a different hour for a reason. They have to be an organized system in order for the puzzle to be even remotely solvable.

what stone tablet was this so-called rule etched onto? :P

If you were solving a Sudoku, and the final solution came down to just one 2x2 square of numbers that could be 5 7 / 7 5 or 7 5 / 5 7, both equally valid solutions, so you choose one and then later you see the printed solution and it turns out you chose wrong, wouldn't you be pretty miffed? I've been solving puzzle magazines for years, and I have never, never, NEVER seen even one puzzle with an ambiguous solution. Why? Because they are meant to be solved purely by logic. There is NO GUESSWORK involved. The clock puzzle is no different.

if guessing were forbidden, the game should just destroy the path (or permanently lock you out of it) after one wrong answer, since there's no reason whatsoever to get it incorrect on the first try.

That seems really unfair to me, because someone might rush to enter the answer and might make a mistake, and thus they can never get the Chain Saw even though they did have the correct answer. Then again, I've played FFIX before and I did have to learn the hard way that you can't run across the plank in Burmecia or else the one chest becomes inaccessible, so what do I know?

now, i think it's possible the dialogue was flubbed, but just haven't seen near ironclad proof here.  the townspeople can aid in the process of elimination, without wrapping up everything neatly in a bow.

out of curiosity, what does FF6j say?

Maybe I should check the Japanese dialogue to be sure, maybe even the Advance dialogue, but the only way I know to do that is to actually play through the game up to that point, which I have neither the time nor the patience for just to check one line of dialogue. But even if those versions say the same thing, that doesn't make it right or fair. It could just have been one guy's mistake that no one ever realized was a mistake.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." -Gildor from The Lord of the Rings

assassin

  • Bane of Retards
  • *
  • Posts: 1,033
  • space bears are not gentle!
    • View Profile
    • My Barren Webpage
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2016, 01:38:54 PM »
What are you talking about? If one guy says it, you already know it's a lie. So there's nothing to add by having another guy say the same thing.

i never said it added anything to the puzzle solving.  nor does it need to.  the redundancy makes them seem a bit more like authentically bullshitting individual townspeople, as opposed to mere cogs in one bullshitting machine.

Quote
And who cares about them not seeming like an organized system when they clearly already are? Those guys walking through that one hallway in a conga line each say a different hour for a reason. They have to be an organized system in order for the puzzle to be even remotely solvable.

unlike the rest of the Zozoians, the conga line members are quite close to one another (a little bit too close for mere colleagues, but that's another topic), so dialogue within the line is bound to be more coordinated.  in contrast, why should people in separate buildings have the same tight level of coordination?  it's unrealistic.

having one omission/redundancy adds in a whiff of realism.

Quote
what stone tablet was this so-called rule etched onto? :P

If you were solving a Sudoku, and the final solution came down to just one 2x2 square of numbers that could be 5 7 / 7 5 or 7 5 / 5 7, both equally valid solutions, so you choose one and then later you see the printed solution and it turns out you chose wrong, wouldn't you be pretty miffed? I've been solving puzzle magazines for years, and I have never, never, NEVER seen even one puzzle with an ambiguous solution. Why? Because they are meant to be solved purely by logic. There is NO GUESSWORK involved. The clock puzzle is no different.

it's PLENTY different, and this analogy is weak.  the Chainsaw puzzle does NOT have any ambiguous solutions, because you CAN SEE and HEAR whether surroundings change or not.  the puzzle itself gives you feedback in response to your choice, thus enabling you to adjust said choice.  in your Sudoku example, there is no real-time feedback, and thus no way to know the right answer until that week's edition of the puzzle is "over".

Quote
Maybe I should check the Japanese dialogue to be sure, maybe even the Advance dialogue, but the only way I know to do that is to actually play through the game up to that point, which I have neither the time nor the patience for just to check one line of dialogue. But even if those versions say the same thing, that doesn't make it right or fair. It could just have been one guy's mistake that no one ever realized was a mistake.

looking at Djibriel's FF6 Adv guide, the English dialogue is comparable to FF3us.  so the redundancy was likely in the original Japanese.

13375K31C43R

  • Ultros
  • *
  • Posts: 675
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Leet Sketcher's Final Fantasy III Patches
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2016, 02:52:27 PM »
i never said it added anything to the puzzle solving.  nor does it need to.  the redundancy makes them seem a bit more like authentically bullshitting individual townspeople, as opposed to mere cogs in one bullshitting machine.

So what? You don't need two people telling the same lie to know it's a lie. Just look at...I dunno...EVERY OTHER CLUE to this puzzle besides this one. Everything else that's incorrect about the answer, you only need to be told once. You already know these people are lying to you no matter what building they're in. Why should this clue be any different?

unlike the rest of the Zozoians, the conga line members are quite close to one another (a little bit too close for mere colleagues, but that's another topic), so dialogue within the line is bound to be more coordinated.  in contrast, why should people in separate buildings have the same tight level of coordination?  it's unrealistic.

having one omission/redundancy adds in a whiff of realism.

It's not unrealistic! Need I remind you that these two liars, even though they're not in the same building, are in two buildings that are RIGHT NEXT to each other? Contrast that with the guy in the Inn lobby, who does in fact give you a NEW clue. Or the guy in the weapon shop who gives you the minute hand clue. Clearly, everyone's in the loop no matter where they are. So your argument is invalid.

it's PLENTY different, and this analogy is weak.  the Chainsaw puzzle does NOT have any ambiguous solutions, because you CAN SEE and HEAR whether surroundings change or not.  the puzzle itself gives you feedback in response to your choice, thus enabling you to adjust said choice.  in your Sudoku example, there is no real-time feedback, and thus no way to know the right answer until that week's edition of the puzzle is "over".

Who cares?! First of all, I haven't seen OR heard anything about the environment changing when the right answer is chosen. Second, even if that does happen, the ambiguity is on the second hand, which is the LAST thing you have to choose. Of course you can already figure out the hour and minute hands, so maybe those will click, but without knowing the second hand, this "real-time feedback" makes no difference because the only real feedback you need is the game telling you whether you got the answer right or not.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." -Gildor from The Lord of the Rings

assassin

  • Bane of Retards
  • *
  • Posts: 1,033
  • space bears are not gentle!
    • View Profile
    • My Barren Webpage
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2016, 03:26:25 PM »
Quote
So what? You don't need two people telling the same lie to know it's a lie.  Just look at...I dunno...EVERY OTHER CLUE to this puzzle besides this one. Everything else that's incorrect about the answer, you only need to be told once. You already know these people are lying to you no matter what building they're in. Why should this clue be any different?

for quite literally the FOURTH time: i said the omission/redundancy makes the NPC dialogue seem a little more human and realistic, NOT that it's a needed step in the puzzle solving.

yet with THREE replies now, you've quoted me while harping that it's not necessary to solve the puzzle.  just whose words exactly are you responding to here?

Quote
It's not unrealistic! Need I remind you that these two liars, even though they're not in the same building, are in two buildings that are RIGHT NEXT to each other?

so?  i live in a building right next door to either of my neighbors, and we don't coordinate squat together.  hell, i don't even know half of their first names.  being in adjacent buildings is hardly the breathing-on-coworkers-neck level of closeness exhibited in the conga line.

Quote
Who cares?! First of all, I haven't seen OR heard anything about the environment changing when the right answer is chosen.

uh, a big wall moves right in front of your face, making noises in the process.  now i'm beginning to understand how you could make three consecutive non sequitur replies to my original point. :/

Quote
Of course you can already figure out the hour and minute hands, so maybe those will click, but without knowing the second hand, this "real-time feedback" makes no difference because the only real feedback you need is the game telling you whether you got the answer right or not.

my points are that:
- when the puzzle *itself* gives you feedback, having to go through TWO tries is hardly the onerous, gut-wrenching assault on logic and time that you make it out to be.
- your Sudoku example is invalid here, because the puzzle does not tell you when you guess wrong.  you're reliant on the newspaper editor providing you the answer at a later date.

------------

as i've said before, there's a good chance you're right about the line being botched.  i just think it's a mistake to try and extend game mechanics-level logic to dialogue, since the game is doing two things in the Zozoians' speech: 1) presenting a puzzle, and 2) giving you separate, semi-believable humanoid characters to talk to.  i also think it's a baffling mistake to repeatedly quote me and respond with lectures about certain dialogue being extraneous to puzzle solving, as i've never ONCE claimed otherwise.  truly bizarre, but if you're from a plane where walls moving doesn't register visually or auditorily, i can understand the cognitive lapses. :P

13375K31C43R

  • Ultros
  • *
  • Posts: 675
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Leet Sketcher's Final Fantasy III Patches
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2016, 04:08:32 PM »
so?  i live in a building right next door to either of my neighbors, and we don't coordinate squat together.  hell, i don't even know half of their first names.  being in adjacent buildings is hardly the breathing-on-coworkers-neck level of closeness exhibited in the conga line.

OK, so you don't know who your neighbour is. What does that have to do with this? Remember, everyone in Zozo, except allegedly the "this place is dangerous" guy, is a liar, and all of these people (again, with a few exceptions) mention the clock. That fact ALONE should tell you that they know about the puzzle, and that they have all conspired to tell you lies about it. OBVIOUSLY, this is an organized, coordinated system. How about you read the WHOLE paragraph before jumping to conclusions? My point is, if you can't expect two people in neighbouring buildings to know to give different clues, how can you expect the same from all the other thieves in separate buildings?

uh, a big wall moves right in front of your face, making noises in the process.

THAT'S the "real-time feedback" you were referring to?! OK, yes, obviously I was aware of THAT. You made it sound like choosing a single hand correctly gave you feedback. But instead you're trying to say this is enough? In which case you just negated your own argument about the difference between this puzzle and a Sudoku! :stfu:

my points are that:
- when the puzzle *itself* gives you feedback, having to go through TWO tries is hardly the onerous, gut-wrenching assault on logic and time that you make it out to be.
- your Sudoku example is invalid here, because the puzzle does not tell you when you guess wrong.  you're reliant on the newspaper editor providing you the answer at a later date.

First of all, I don't actually solve newspaper puzzles, I buy puzzle magazines. You can probably find one at your local supermarket. These DO have the solutions printed in the back, so I can check the answer for myself. Second, even if I did have to wait a day to see the answer, I'd still be able to see it eventually, so who cares?

as i've said before, there's a good chance you're right about the line being botched.  i just think it's a mistake to try and extend game mechanics-level logic to dialogue, since the game is doing two things in the Zozoians' speech: 1) presenting a puzzle, and 2) giving you separate, semi-believable humanoid characters to talk to.  i also think it's a baffling mistake to repeatedly quote me and respond with lectures about certain dialogue being extraneous to puzzle solving, as i've never ONCE claimed otherwise.  truly bizarre, but if you're from a plane where walls moving doesn't register visually or auditorily, i can understand the cognitive lapses. :P

You know what, you're thinking way too much about the "realism" aspect of this. I do still contend that having someone repeating someone else's line is LESS realistic because everyone's in the know, but even if that's not the case, there are times when realism is obsolesced by fairness. If you want a shining example of this, watch this video. Obviously it's about a completely different game, and admittedly the examples given are more extreme, but it still perfectly illustrates my point.

Being an avid puzzle-solver, playing through this puzzle, gathering all the clues, narrowing down the choices as effectively as logic will allow, doing EVERYTHING RIGHT, and still being left with a guess between two choices, is unfair. I don't care that it's only two choices, it's still unfair.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." -Gildor from The Lord of the Rings

assassin

  • Bane of Retards
  • *
  • Posts: 1,033
  • space bears are not gentle!
    • View Profile
    • My Barren Webpage
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2016, 04:45:05 PM »
OK, so you don't know who your neighbour is. What does that have to do with this? Remember, everyone in Zozo, except allegedly the "this place is dangerous" guy, is a liar, and all of these people (again, with a few exceptions) mention the clock. That fact ALONE should tell you that they know about the puzzle, and that they have all conspired to tell you lies about it. OBVIOUSLY, this is an organized, coordinated system.

conga line members aside, i see it as less of a coordinated conspiracy than as individual liars.  liars whose duplicate clues are kept to a minimum due to space constraints -- the same sort of constraints that make 3 houses and 5 townspeople constitute an average "town" in this game.  no town is actually meant to be that small; the kid with the blonde hair, the lady in the red dress, the old man in the hat, the brown-haired guy in the shirt, and the old woman with the ponytail are a sampling of what's understood to be a more populated area.  sometimes, there are repeats in the sampling, and you'll get the mind-blowing occurrence of two old guys in hats in a single town.  likewise, Zozo had a repeat slip through.

i don't see redundant Zozo clues as any more of an assault on logic, no closer to a rip in the time-space continuum, than two old men in hats living in the same municipality.


Quote
How about you read the WHOLE paragraph before jumping to conclusions? My point is, if you can't expect two people in neighbouring buildings to know to give different clues, how can you expect the same from all the other thieves in separate buildings?

i don't.  which is why having some repetition seems more realistic to me.  more repetition yet would be even more realistic, but there's no rule that having one duplicate means you need to have at least two for the first to be intentional.

keep in mind that recognizing the duplicate requires a little reasoning, which i'll discuss in my next post.


Quote
uh, a big wall moves right in front of your face, making noises in the process.

THAT'S the "real-time feedback" you were referring to?! OK, yes, obviously I was aware of THAT. You made it sound like choosing a single hand correctly gave you feedback. But instead you're trying to say this is enough? In which case you just negated your own argument about the difference between this puzzle and a Sudoku! :stfu:

nope.  you're equating the Chainsaw puzzle giving you feedback with having to flip to the back of a puzzle book for Sudoku answers.  this is a flawed comparison, because the latter divulges the whole answer, while the former only tells the solver whether they plugged in the correct answer.  vastly different.

why does it matter whether the feedback occurs after a single hand?  bottom line: you have to input a whopping three numbers twice.  how hard is that to do?  how time-consuming?  if someone is that short on time, maybe they should be checking off items on a bucket list and saying heartfelt farewells to family members, rather than playing some old video game.


Quote
First of all, I don't actually solve newspaper puzzles, I buy puzzle magazines. You can probably find one at your local supermarket. These DO have the solutions printed in the back, so I can check the answer for myself. Second, even if I did have to wait a day to see the answer, I'd still be able to see it eventually, so who cares?

whatever the print medium may be, you're still at the mercy of editors supplying the correct answer -- or else you'd be perpetually wondering whether that "5 7" or "7 5" was right.  NOT the case in Zozo, where the puzzle itself will promptly tell you if you're right.


Quote
You know what, you're thinking way too much about the "realism" aspect of this. I do still contend that having someone repeating someone else's line is LESS realistic because everyone's in the know, but even if that's not the case, there are times when realism is obsolesced by fairness. If you want a shining example of this, watch this video. Obviously it's about a completely different game, and admittedly the examples given are more extreme, but it still perfectly illustrates my point.

Being an avid puzzle-solver, playing through this puzzle, gathering all the clues, narrowing down the choices as effectively as logic will allow, doing EVERYTHING RIGHT, and still being left with a guess between two choices, is unfair. I don't care that it's only two choices, it's still unfair.

we must define "fair" differently.  bringing 150 combinations down to 2 seems _extremely_ accommodating to me.  geometrically, that's a factor of 75; arithmetically, that's a reduction of 148.  you apparently consider anything short of the answer wrapped up in a big, tidy bow to be "unfair".

assassin

  • Bane of Retards
  • *
  • Posts: 1,033
  • space bears are not gentle!
    • View Profile
    • My Barren Webpage
Re: C. V. Bug-Fix Comp and C. V. Script Fix
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2016, 04:59:23 PM »
recognizing the duplicate clue itself requires some reasoning that i think you're glossing over here, which is easy for someone of an advanced age and corresponding faculties to do.  8-14 year-olds were likely a good chunk of this game's target demographic.  many people in that group will not immediately discern that a hand "pointing at 4" is a subset of "divisible by 20".  so identifying the former clue as redundant is in and of itself a form of puzzle solving to some children.

thus, there can be a case of something that augments a puzzle or adds a minor twist to it, without being a necessity to complete it.

filtering out such noise wouldn't be unprecedented in puzzle solving.

if you do indeed frequent puzzle books, you'll know that in the "Person 1 doesn't live in House 2", "Person 2 is older than Person 3", "and Person 3's car is not red" -style puzzles, there will sometimes be more than the bare minimum of clues.  are you suggesting all of those cases have typos as well?  obviously, those puzzles don't have omissions, but they ALSO don't have a giant wall that moves in front of your face to tell you when you're right. :P