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Author Topic: The Back Row  (Read 5768 times)

Deathlike2

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The Back Row
« on: February 23, 2008, 12:55:15 AM »
The back row provides two things defensively.

Defense is increased by 2x.
Evade is increased by 2x.

The effects of the back row incompatibility on attack power will be done shortly.
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Deathlike2

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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2008, 02:14:48 AM »
When attacking in the back row, the damage randomness changes... instead of 100-150% of the attack power, it is more like 90%-150% of the attack power..

Edit: Update, hit rate is also lowered. By how much? I have no idea.. but it is enough to make Kain miss in the back row with the Spear (which has a 99% hit rate). Since there is a hit rate bonus based on level/4, the penalty goes away eventually but it becomes very apparent in the early levels. The hit rate is reduced by at least 10% (16%, 20%, 24% are all possible reduction rates) to have such an effect on Kain... based on the attack multiplier anyways.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 02:32:38 AM by Deathlike2 »
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Deathlike2

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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2008, 02:05:24 PM »
Now that I rethink this.. I doubt Evade is actually increased.. rather the attacker's hit rate is decreased (Kain with the 99% hit rate Spear can miss enemy targets who all have 0% evade).

Defense might not increase.. but perhaps a damage penalty of /2 is incurred to the attacker.. which might be more accurate, given the way most characters do pathetic damage against the King-Ryu (FF2US name) in the back row.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 02:56:32 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Pinkpuff

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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2008, 03:10:13 PM »
Quote
Defense might not increase.. but perhaps a damage penalty of /2 is incurred to the attacker.. which might be more accurate, given the way most characters do pathetic damage against the King-Ryu (FF2US name) in the back row.

So monsters have a back and a front row too?
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Deathlike2

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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2008, 03:14:24 PM »
Guys attacking from the back row not only suffer from a hit rate penalty (but that can be negated with the high levels+hit rate bonus).. but they also seem to "lose" their bonus attack power.. most notably Edge suffers the most from this because of how his attack power is calculated. Instead of keeping the bonus, it is used as part of a randomized attack power formula.

Normally...

Attack Power = Weapon Power + Str/4 + Level/4 (unfortunately Bows don't take the level bonus into account AT ALL)
Edge's Attack Power = Left Hand Weapon Power + Str/4 + Level/4 + Right Hand Weapon Power + Str/4 + Level/4 (as long as both weapons are not claws and both hands have weapons)
Damage = Attack Power * rand (100, 150) / 100 * Hit Rate.... (the basic attack calculations, not factoring in elemental/enemy type modifers)

Well, the back row penalty makes the calculations go like this...
Attack Power = Weapon Power + rand(0, Str/4 + Level/4)
Edge's Attack Power = Left Hand Weapon Power + rand(0, Str/4 + Level/4) + Right Hand Weapon Power + rand(0, Str/4 + Level/4)

If you see how this drastically affects your damage output, you see how painful that it is... if a back row compatible weapon is in either hand and Edge is in the back row... the calculation is more like this...
Edge's Attack Power = Back Row Compatible Weapon Power + Str/4 + Level/4 + Non-Back Row Compatible Weapon + rand (0, Str/4 + Level/4)

In sum, keep Edge in the front row.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 03:29:36 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Deathlike2

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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2008, 03:17:09 PM »
Quote from: Pinkpuff on February 27, 2008, 03:10:13 PM
Quote
Defense might not increase.. but perhaps a damage penalty of /2 is incurred to the attacker.. which might be more accurate, given the way most characters do pathetic damage against the King-Ryu (FF2US name) in the back row.

So monsters have a back and a front row too?

Yes.

Edit: However, I don't think monsters have a penalty to their attack power for being in the back row (I mean, seriously). They only get a penalty for attacking characters that are in the back row.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 03:25:06 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Pinkpuff

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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2008, 03:22:05 PM »
That's cool.

Is there any way to tell what monster is in what row other than just memorizing it for each monster group?
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Deathlike2

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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2008, 03:28:18 PM »
Quote from: Pinkpuff on February 27, 2008, 03:22:05 PM
That's cool.

Is there any way to tell what monster is in what row other than just memorizing it for each monster group?

I think if you logically look at the formation, it should be obvious. The real test is to see if you do normal damage against the target (and sometimes that's difficult according to the algo).

Something like the 3 Imp + 1 Red Cap formation is obvious.. so is a 3 Imp + 1 Basilisk formation.

I'm not sure if it is a byte set, but I suspect the game does some check to determine if a target is in the "back row". Once the enemies in front are eliminated, the back row becomes non-existant (for obvious reasons).
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 04:10:35 PM by Deathlike2 »
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Pinkpuff

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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2008, 03:55:07 PM »
Quote
Once the enemies in front are eliminated, the back row becomes non-existant (for obvious reasons).

Actually I find that kind of surprising.

Does the same thing happen to your party? Do back row characters start taking and dealing front row damage when all the front row characters are KOed?
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Deathlike2

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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2008, 04:08:47 PM »
Quote from: Pinkpuff on February 27, 2008, 03:55:07 PM
Quote
Once the enemies in front are eliminated, the back row becomes non-existant (for obvious reasons).

Actually I find that kind of surprising.

Does the same thing happen to your party? Do back row characters start taking and dealing front row damage when all the front row characters are KOed?

Ironically, no. Characters in the back row take the same damage whether or not the front row characters are dead.
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Deathlike2

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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2008, 12:16:10 AM »
Hit rate loss seems to head towards ~32%. Here's my reasoning...

Anything greater than 90% hit rate generally means hit rate "success" for your attack multiplier. At 99%, it implies total success. Since the hit rate is base weapon hit rate + level hit rate bonus (level/4), it would take a significant hit rate drop > 24% to make 99% hit rate weaponry to show even a slight damage drop. However, this hurts Edge's weaponry a bit, but also Kain's weaponry and Rosa's staffs. Rosa with a staff (maybe other than the Power Staff) will never allow her hit at full potential.. this also explains how FuSoYa still sucks with the Lunar Staff he starts with (3x attack multiplier with a hit rate of like ~72% plus a penalty of 32% which implies he's hitting at 40%)... which means he's useless unless he uses a bow+arrow setup.
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Deathlike2

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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2008, 10:42:18 PM »
Ok, I figured it out finally... I think.

To calculate the back row penalty, it is much more simpler than I thought.

For each hand wielding a weapon that is not back row compatible and the character is in the back row, subtract 32 from the current hit rate.

Examples:

Cecil @ level 1 with Legend Sword

99  + 0 (level bonus) - 32 (back row penalty) = 67% hit rate

Even with a multiplier of 2, he has a good chance of missing a target while in the back row (my attack algo will debut soon...)

Cecil @ level 99 with Crystal Sword (FF2US name) aka Ragnarok in FF4

99 + 24 (level bonus) - 32 (back row penalty) = 91% hit rate

The hit rate loss is almost negligible, but damage on average will be lower.

See how this hurts Edge... a lot.

Edge @ level 25 with his default katanas

(90+90)/2 + 6 (level bonus) - 64 (2 back row penalties) = 32% hit rate

The hit rate is atrocious, and arguably could be like equipping early game weapons.

Edge @ level 99 with the best katanas (90% Murasame, 99% Masamune)

(90+99)/2 + 24  (level bonus) - 64 (2 back row penalties) = 54% hit rate

On average, this means Edge will be vastly inefficient in the back row (it's not 50% damage drop because of attack power randomness, but still significant).

In sum, Edge needs to be in the front row almost all the time, unless you buy him some Boomerangs.
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Deathlike2

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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2008, 01:17:03 AM »
One piece of info worth pointing out. Back row compatible weapons can target other enemies in the back row w/o penalty. This behaves very much like FF5.
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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2008, 11:17:26 AM »
I remember a discussion in another thread about the back row property not working correctly in FF4A.  I think you still get a hit rate penalty for being in the back row, even if your weapon is back-row compatible.  Equip Cecil with a bow in the magnetic cave, and put him in the back row -- you'll see him get 1 or 2 hits often, instead of the 3 or 4 he should be getting.
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Deathlike2

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Re: The Back Row
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2008, 01:31:56 PM »
Yes, that's why I said in the Aim thread that the command is not back row compatible. It just happens that all bows+arrows are back row compatible... but FF4A's back row bug expose said behavior.
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